Karlsands
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Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:29 pm

I’ve noticed, especially with Boeing aircraft prior to being fully painted they have a few stripes of the upcoming livery on the tail itself. What is the reason for such ? Branding ?
 
headlessmike
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:32 pm

Isn’t it just the rudder that is painted before assembly and the rest of the stabilizer is painted with the rest of the aircraft? Nothing more to it.
 
MO11
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:44 pm

Rudder has to be balanced with the weight of the paint.
 
Karlsands
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:48 pm

headlessmike wrote:
Isn’t it just the rudder that is painted before assembly and the rest of the stabilizer is painted with the rest of the aircraft? Nothing more to it.

I’ve noticed a stripe on the rudder then also further forward itself as if there are 3 lines of paint
 
stratclub
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:59 pm

The rudder is painted and then mass balanced off the aircraft because if the rudder was painted on the aircraft, it would have to be removed to be mass balanced and then reinstalled.
 
LH707330
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:34 pm

Karlsands wrote:
headlessmike wrote:
Isn’t it just the rudder that is painted before assembly and the rest of the stabilizer is painted with the rest of the aircraft? Nothing more to it.

I’ve noticed a stripe on the rudder then also further forward itself as if there are 3 lines of paint

Maybe different panel colors? I've never seen what I think you're describing.
 
Karlsands
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:46 pm

LH707330 wrote:
Karlsands wrote:
headlessmike wrote:
Isn’t it just the rudder that is painted before assembly and the rest of the stabilizer is painted with the rest of the aircraft? Nothing more to it.

I’ve noticed a stripe on the rudder then also further forward itself as if there are 3 lines of paint

Maybe different panel colors? I've never seen what I think you're describing.

As in so https://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitle ... 0tGA%3D%3D
 
LH707330
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:49 pm

Karlsands wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
Karlsands wrote:
I’ve noticed a stripe on the rudder then also further forward itself as if there are 3 lines of paint

Maybe different panel colors? I've never seen what I think you're describing.

As in so https://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitle ... 0tGA%3D%3D

Thanks for posting that. On the fin:

Leading edge segments: slightly different metal colors, one of those segments is the cover for the HF antenna, and the metal shading may be a bit different from panel to panel. They're covered with a green vinyl metal protector that's removed before painting. You can see similar shading patterns on some fuselage barrels as well.

Center fin: this is composite, and is either painted in a primer or masked with gray tape, to be painted with a blue topcoat later

Rudder: painted Korean logo on part of it, not sure if the gray is a primer or mask.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:27 pm

stratclub wrote:
The rudder is painted and then mass balanced off the aircraft because if the rudder was painted on the aircraft, it would have to be removed to be mass balanced and then reinstalled.


Why don't they have to remove the rudder for repainting then?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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LH707330
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:33 pm

DocLightning wrote:
stratclub wrote:
The rudder is painted and then mass balanced off the aircraft because if the rudder was painted on the aircraft, it would have to be removed to be mass balanced and then reinstalled.


Why don't they have to remove the rudder for repainting then?

If they repaint it while mounted, they probably remove it after and rebalance it.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:04 am

LH707330 wrote:
If they repaint it while mounted, they probably remove it after and rebalance it.


No. At least we don't after a paint visit.

DocLightning wrote:
Why don't they have to remove the rudder for repainting then?


Doc, the SRM (structural repair manual) provides procedures for balancing the rudder while on the aircraft. I suspect that the manufacturers balance the rudder, off-wing, in order to provide a good, solid baseline for the operators to start from when repairs and re-paint are made while the aircraft is in service.

If the operators can not achieve the balance moment limit, then the rudder must be removed and balanced.
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dakota123
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:55 am

fr8mech wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
If they repaint it while mounted, they probably remove it after and rebalance it.


No. At least we don't after a paint visit.

DocLightning wrote:
Why don't they have to remove the rudder for repainting then?


Doc, the SRM (structural repair manual) provides procedures for balancing the rudder while on the aircraft. I suspect that the manufacturers balance the rudder, off-wing, in order to provide a good, solid baseline for the operators to start from when repairs and re-paint are made while the aircraft is in service.

If the operators can not achieve the balance moment limit, then the rudder must be removed and balanced.


How are they balanced as installed?
“And If I claim to be a wise man, well surely it means that I don’t know”
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:04 am

dakota123 wrote:
How are they balanced as installed?


Just happened to read through the engineering document for painting the aircraft.

In real simple terms, it's done through calculations. You measure the average thickness of the paint before removal, then again after paint installation. Then you do the math. Refer to the records that are kept of the flight control, and do more math and you come up with the balance moment. So long as it's under the limit specified in the SRM, you're good to go.

Make the necessary changes to the flight control's paperwork, and fly the thing.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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DocLightning
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:40 am

fr8mech wrote:
Doc, the SRM (structural repair manual) provides procedures for balancing the rudder while on the aircraft. I suspect that the manufacturers balance the rudder, off-wing, in order to provide a good, solid baseline for the operators to start from when repairs and re-paint are made while the aircraft is in service.

If the operators can not achieve the balance moment limit, then the rudder must be removed and balanced.


Thanks!
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
LH707330
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:16 pm

Cool, thanks for informing us of that!
 
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CALTECH
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:15 pm

Karlsands wrote:
I’ve noticed, especially with Boeing aircraft prior to being fully painted they have a few stripes of the upcoming livery on the tail itself. What is the reason for such ? Branding ?


Simple answer, it is much easier to paint the 'leading edge' of the rudder/flight control surfaces off the airplane, rather than try to paint it on the aircraft with the trailing edge of the vertical stab getting in the way. Hard to paint the leading edge that way.
The '3rd line' if I read you correctly, is the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer. Usually left bare metal due to air eroding paint quickly in this area. But many aircraft liveries do paint the leading edge. Saves a bit of weight if not painted, but then the argument of what is more cost effective, American's bare metal finish or a painted finish ensues.

To expand on fr8mech's posts, anytime any flight control is worked on,

'YOU MUST MAKE SURE THAT THE CONTROL SURFACES IDENTIFIED IN THIS SUBJECT ARE BALANCED AT ALL TIMES. IF YOU DO A REWORK, REPAINT, OR REPAIR TO A CONTROL SURFACE, YOU MUST DO A BALANCE OF THAT SURFACE. IF YOU REWORK, REPAINT, OR REPAIR A CONTROL SURFACE TAB, YOU MUST WEIGH THAT TAB. IF YOU DO NOT OBEY, YOU CAN HAVE A CONDITION THAT IS DANGEROUS TO THE SAFETY OF FLIGHT.'

The Balance Adjust Weights then need to be played with.

A Category I Control Surface can be put into service after a repair, rework, or repaint, if: You can get the balance limits given in the Table when you add a sufficient number of adjust weights.
NOTE: For a Control Surface balanced on the airplane by calculation, the Calculated Rework Limits must be used. For a Control Surface balanced off the airplane with a balance fixture, the Operational Limits must be used.
A Category II Control Surface can be put into service after a repair, rework, or repaint only after it has been weighed.
NOTE: The weight is within the limits given in the Table.
It is possible to make a Category I Control Surface serviceable by removing the Control Surface from the airplane and finding the Balance Moment with a balance fixture. Use the Operational Limits given in the Table.
Category I Control Surfaces which are not removed from the airplane or are not within the Operational Limits in a balance fixture can be made serviceable if you do as follows, remove all the paint applied to the Control Surface.
NOTE: Removal of part of the paint on the Control Surface is not permitted.
Apply a new finish that is equivalent to the initial finish.

Critical work on these flight control surfaces....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egDWh7jnNic
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Karlsands
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Re: Curiosity about pre delivery vertical stabilizer

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:28 pm

Very cool, good to know. appreciate the technical input

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