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aerolimani
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Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:26 pm

University researchers in Canada have developed a new anti-ice coating. It looks like a permanent coating which prevents ice from adhering to surfaces. Something like this has the potential to save a lot of money in the aviation industry. I wonder if it will become a reality, in the end, for aviation. Or, will it remain relegated to restaurant ice-makers?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.5112427
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:43 pm

So they made a Teflon for airplane wings.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:04 pm

My first thought is the weight of this coating on the aircraft. And would Boeing make it an option? So Fiji Airways could decide not to order it since they'd never need it?
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aerolimani
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:19 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
My first thought is the weight of this coating on the aircraft. And would Boeing make it an option? So Fiji Airways could decide not to order it since they'd never need it?

I would think that such a thing could be optional.

I wonder if it could ever replace heat based anti-icing for leading edges and nacelles. Or, inflatable boot types?

Or, could it be integrated into the paint so as to less significantly affect the weight? Of course, it would only really be needed on the wings and the horizontal stab, wouldn’t it?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:16 pm

Devils advocate here! :devil:

Definitely has a loooonng way to go before any application to aircraft. If it is ever offered. Failure of the application or the substance could lead to fatal consequences and exposure to enormous liability.

Beyond that I am curious how high altitude freezing, additional radiation over thousands of hours and friction from atmospheric drag etc. would affect this.

Tugg
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aerolimani
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:43 pm

Tugger wrote:
Devils advocate here! :devil:

Definitely has a loooonng way to go before any application to aircraft. If it is ever offered. Failure of the application or the substance could lead to fatal consequences and exposure to enormous liability.

Beyond that I am curious how high altitude freezing, additional radiation over thousands of hours and friction from atmospheric drag etc. would affect this.

Tugg

It’s definitely not something that is likely to happen very quickly, if ever, frankly speaking. There are significant obstacles to overcome. It’s true that many products never leave the research phase.

But, the cost savings on this could be huge. That could drive the research. Imagine eliminating all the costs of de-icing: the fluid itself, environmental recovery of said fluid, the crew hours, the wasted time a plane sits there on the de-icing pad, the cost of purchasing and maintaining the spraying equipment, and on and on.
 
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:40 pm

Tugger wrote:
Devils advocate here!

Makes you wonder what process they use to get it to adhere to the substrate they wish to be anti-ice.
Chemically bonded, baked on, dries from VOC evaporation or water emulsion?

Okie
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:32 am

If its effectivity is proven, I could see it being implemented as a film applied to sensitive surfaces, inspected on regular basis and renewed as required.

The weight and money savings from foregoing the anti-ice systems and their associated plumbing / cabling and maintenance requirements could make it worthwhile.
It would take a while to get it anywhere close to certification, but I could see it creeping its way into the GA market in the not too distant future.
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Redbellyguppy
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:07 pm

You think Fiji airlines never encounters icing conditions?
 
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:28 pm

Redbellyguppy wrote:
You think Fiji airlines never encounters icing conditions?


Indeed. I've walked under the wing with 30 degrees outside and been dripped on from melting ice under the wing.
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Redbellyguppy
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:38 am

Cold soaked fuel frost aside... you and I both know a jet can encounter icing conditions at any time of the year.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:35 am

Redbellyguppy wrote:
Cold soaked fuel frost aside... you and I both know a jet can encounter icing conditions at any time of the year.


Yep!
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:38 am

BWIAirport wrote:
So Fiji Airways could decide not to order it since they'd never need it?


Reminds me of the times in summer when the anti-ice valves need to be locked in the on position, and folks ask why when it's 95 degrees on the ground......

Approx temp at altitudes...

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BWIAirport
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:27 pm

CALTECH wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
So Fiji Airways could decide not to order it since they'd never need it?


Reminds me of the times in summer when the anti-ice valves need to be locked in the on position, and folks ask why when it's 95 degrees on the ground......

Forgive me for possibly sounding naive but I thought significant levels of ice were unable to form on an airborne aircraft since its going so fast?
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:03 pm

I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:25 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
Forgive me for possibly sounding naive but I thought significant levels of ice were unable to form on an airborne aircraft since its going so fast?

That is sadly wrong. Particularly super-cooled droplets (liquid water at 0°C or less) are a problem. Warmer droplets can still freeze if aircraft parts are at < 0°C, e. g. during descent. Several crashes have occured due to icing.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/In-Flight_Icing

However, I'm not sure if this particular technology can prevent the in-flight build up of ice.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:26 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
So Fiji Airways could decide not to order it since they'd never need it?


Reminds me of the times in summer when the anti-ice valves need to be locked in the on position, and folks ask why when it's 95 degrees on the ground......

Forgive me for possibly sounding naive but I thought significant levels of ice were unable to form on an airborne aircraft since its going so fast?


Readup on AF447 and many others. Amazing.......

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:15 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
So Fiji Airways could decide not to order it since they'd never need it?


Reminds me of the times in summer when the anti-ice valves need to be locked in the on position, and folks ask why when it's 95 degrees on the ground......

Forgive me for possibly sounding naive but I thought significant levels of ice were unable to form on an airborne aircraft since its going so fast?


Temperatures between +10 (SAT/OAT) and 40 (TAT), with visible moisture, are considered "icing conditions". Regardless of speed. Supercooled water droplets turn into ice on contact, and can stick like glue.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Okie
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:37 pm

mxaxai wrote:
However, I'm not sure if this particular technology can prevent the in-flight build up of ice.


I would have to see this in testing as well.

There is a profound difference in dealing with an ice cube adherence to an ice that has formed in a tray and the weight of the cube such that it can release itself from gravity and Rime ice that forms on aircraft surfaces in flight.
This is especially be important when the Rime ice forms around the leading edge of a wing or slightly aft of the leading edge.
The problem with Rime ice is more about the ice shape disturbing the airflow than the quantity from my understanding.

Okie
 
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CALTECH
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Thu May 02, 2019 3:48 am

aerolimani wrote:
University researchers in Canada have developed a new anti-ice coating. It looks like a permanent coating which prevents ice from adhering to surfaces. Something like this has the potential to save a lot of money in the aviation industry. I wonder if it will become a reality, in the end, for aviation. Or, will it remain relegated to restaurant ice-makers?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.5112427


NASA and others have been looking into it for a while now....

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 002627.pdf

https://archive.triblive.com/news/wire- ... i-icing-2/
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Willjet
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Fri May 10, 2019 5:26 am

CALTECH wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
CALTECH wrote:

Reminds me of the times in summer when the anti-ice valves need to be locked in the on position, and folks ask why when it's 95 degrees on the ground......

Forgive me for possibly sounding naive but I thought significant levels of ice were unable to form on an airborne aircraft since its going so fast?


Readup on AF447 and many others. Amazing.......

Image

Image

Image

Image


Thank you for the pictures. For a lay person, how would airliner deal with ice build up that formed enroute? Do they usually melt away on approach or would the FMS factor in the added weight/lost lift?
 
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Fri May 10, 2019 6:16 am

The FM has no idea about extra drag from icing. It only knows a calculated model based on the history of the airframe, plus any CDL/MEL items added for that particular flight.

There are three things that can be done if you have ice buildup.
- Turn on engine anti-ice. If the build up is heavy, turn on wing anti-ice. These will melt away ice on some of the exposed surfaces.
- Move to warmer air, either laterally or vertically.
- Speed up if possible.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
kalvado
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Fri May 10, 2019 11:00 am

Starlionblue wrote:
The FM has no idea about extra drag from icing. It only knows a calculated model based on the history of the airframe, plus any CDL/MEL items added for that particular flight.

There are three things that can be done if you have ice buildup.
- Turn on engine anti-ice. If the build up is heavy, turn on wing anti-ice. These will melt away ice on some of the exposed surfaces.
- Move to warmer air, either laterally or vertically.
- Speed up if possible.

In a sense, there is at least one implication of extra drag:
as far as I remember pre-takeoff requirements for ice on top and bottom surface of the wing are a little bit different. That is to account for more critical airflow disruption.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Fri May 10, 2019 12:53 pm

Indeed. Some ice on the bottom surface is acceptable, but never on the top. (Type dependent...)

However it's not like we can program a number in the FM to account for drag from icing.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
kalvado
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Re: Researchers invent new, permanent, anti-ice coating

Fri May 10, 2019 1:25 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Indeed. Some ice on the bottom surface is acceptable, but never on the top. (Type dependent...)

However it's not like we can program a number in the FM to account for drag from icing.

I can see two major reasons for that, correct me if I am wrong:
Icing effects are not fixed, they can change outside of pilot's/FMS control. Good luck finding out that there was more drag than expected half-way to Hawaii.
Extra drag can come with strings attached, like disrupted airflow and loss of lift. Again, good luck gambling with those.
So avoidance/elimination strategy seems a wise way to handle it.

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