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anshabhi
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AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:32 pm

Image


https://m.facebook.com/AirIndia/photos/ ... _tn__=EH-R

Pretty good!! They were able to save 140 kgs of fuel. If it's possible to implement this on larger scale we could actually save tons of fuel.
What are the global regulations regarding fuel for diversion? Under what conditions are airlines allowed to by pass them?
I also believe though airlines will quickly replace that 4 ton fuel with cargo
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited spelling in title
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:45 pm

How does cutting the diversion fuel not compromise safety?
What if they need to divert? Ask pax to flap their arms all at the same time?
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
trent768
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:45 pm

Sorry if this sounded like a dumb question, but what gonna happened if a diversion is needed? I mean, there's a chance that something MIGHT happen sometimes..

Or is there a joke somewhere that I didn't get?
 
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cv990Coronado
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:49 pm

Couldn't more fuel be saved safer by having more efficient ground operations?
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:59 pm

trent768 wrote:
Sorry if this sounded like a dumb question, but what gonna happened if a diversion is needed? I mean, there's a chance that something MIGHT happen sometimes..

Or is there a joke somewhere that I didn't get?


I believe this is India adopting common procedures used elsewhere.

Essentially what they are doing is adding more holding fuel and using the other runway at the airport as the alternate. It is allowed, but there are some tight restrictions. Visibility must be good (better than VFR), airport must not be congested. Two separate runways that aren’t crossing. Flight must be short so weather can’t change too much (such as under 6 hours).
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
adi00654
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:02 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
How does cutting the diversion fuel not compromise safety?
What if they need to divert? Ask pax to flap their arms all at the same time?


There is a provision where a flight is operated without a destination alteranative airport ,the amount of fuel required to enable the aeroplane to fly for 15 min at holding speed at 450m(about 1500 ft) above airport elevation and along with final reserve fuel +additional fuel +EDTO and discretionary fuel compensates .
 
N312RC
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:02 pm

I cant speak for flight planning requirements in other countries, but every domestic US flight is dispatched with 45 minutes of "reserve" fuel automatically built into the flight plan. You can't ever "plan" to use that fuel, but it it is there should you arrive at your destination and find that you can't get in for any reason (unforecasted weather, sudden airport closure, etc). Additionally, US flights are dispatched with a certain amount of additional "discretionary" fuel which is agreed upon between the captain and the dispatcher to account for ATC reroutes, deviating for thunderstorms, holding inbound at the destination airport for volume, etc.

Domestically, an alternate airport (and subsequent fuel to that alternate) is only required to be named if from 1 hour before to 1 hour after intended landing time, the ceiling is forecast to be below 2000 feet and the visibility less than 3SM (the "1-2-3 rule"). Some airlines have exemptions to this rule allowing them to run no-alternate operations at lower minimums. Rules for "Flag" operations differ as well.
 
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Aesma
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:08 pm

For very long flights it is common to plan for a landing at a closer airport, with a change to the real destination en-route, from what I understand.

Here they're using an airport with several runways and known good weather, it makes sense.

Now if someone had the idea to attack the airport by bombing the runways, then you have a problem.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anshabhi
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:18 pm

trent768 wrote:
Sorry if this sounded like a dumb question, but what gonna happened if a diversion is needed? I mean, there's a chance that something MIGHT happen sometimes..

Or is there a joke somewhere that I didn't get?

This flight was specially planned in coordination with ATC and regulators to ensure nothing weird happens
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:21 pm

adi00654 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
How does cutting the diversion fuel not compromise safety?
What if they need to divert? Ask pax to flap their arms all at the same time?


There is a provision where a flight is operated without a destination alteranative airport ,the amount of fuel required to enable the aeroplane to fly for 15 min at holding speed at 450m(about 1500 ft) above airport elevation and along with final reserve fuel +additional fuel +EDTO and discretionary fuel compensates .


Is this the result of recent DGCA approval of night landings on standby 9L/27R? I am surprised to know night landings were not allowed on 9L/27R until now. If I recall correctly Air Canada fuel emergency diversion used standby rwy.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:25 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
How does cutting the diversion fuel not compromise safety?
What if they need to divert? Ask pax to flap their arms all at the same time?

trent768 wrote:
Sorry if this sounded like a dumb question, but what gonna happened if a diversion is needed? I mean, there's a chance that something MIGHT happen sometimes..

Presumably this would only apply if the weather was good enough that an alternate airport isn't required. Under US Domestic rules, for instance, one hour before and after scheduled arrival time, ceiling is 2,000 feet and visibility is 3 miles, you don't need an alternate.
Aesma wrote:
For very long flights it is common to plan for a landing at a closer airport, with a change to the real destination en-route, from what I understand.

That would be what's known as a re-dispatch. At a pre-determined point, you check your fuel with what's on the flight plan. If you've got enough, you're good to continue on to destination.
Captain Kevin
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:33 pm

trent768 wrote:
Sorry if this sounded like a dumb question, but what gonna happened if a diversion is needed? I mean, there's a chance that something MIGHT happen sometimes..

Or is there a joke somewhere that I didn't get?


HYD/VOHS has a standby runway. There is also an empty GA/Mil airport BPM/VOHY just 14 miles away with 10,000 ft runway. There is also an airforce base 16 miles away with two runways, longest 8000 ft.
All posts are just opinions.
 
FatCat
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:38 pm

140 Kgs of fuel even on an efficient B787 are 2 or 3 minutes on the tarmac or maybe 20 minutes of APU...
sounds like a joke to me
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:07 pm

All it takes is one airport closure after the "point of no return", and the plane and its passengers & crew are out of luck. Remember the great San Diego power outage of 2011? For seven hours, no one was able to figure out how to turn the lights in this county back on, and SAN was closed.

Imagine that the flight is flying in on fumes, due to "dispatch reliability". What's it going to do? Try and land at SAN in the dark? And the be stuck with no communication once it has landed?

There's just too much that can happen on the ground that can affect traffic. Having no alternate plan is a recipe for disaster.
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:07 pm

FatCat wrote:
140 Kgs of fuel even on an efficient B787 are 2 or 3 minutes on the tarmac or maybe 20 minutes of APU...
sounds like a joke to me


Consider the source...what other airline would use the word "humongous" in a press release. Weak attempt at appearing innovative. At least they have started to eliminate their 10,000 redundant staff positions. Pardon me, I meant to say at least they have started to transfer their 10,000 redundant staff positions to other divisions of the company, proudly declaring their employee to aircraft ratio as "lower than Lufthansa" while adding in small print that that "excludes engineering and ground support". True innovators at work.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:27 pm

FatCat wrote:
140 Kgs of fuel even on an efficient B787 are 2 or 3 minutes on the tarmac or maybe 20 minutes of APU...
sounds like a joke to me


If you expand that small savings to numerous flights over weeks, months and years, it becomes significant. Don't you suspect that is their goal?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
N312RC
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:42 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
All it takes is one airport closure after the "point of no return", and the plane and its passengers & crew are out of luck. Remember the great San Diego power outage of 2011? For seven hours, no one was able to figure out how to turn the lights in this county back on, and SAN was closed.

Imagine that the flight is flying in on fumes, due to "dispatch reliability". What's it going to do? Try and land at SAN in the dark? And the be stuck with no communication once it has landed?

There's just too much that can happen on the ground that can affect traffic. Having no alternate plan is a recipe for disaster.


Which is why you have a dispatcher on the ground who is communicating with the enroute crews in real time. Do you think those planes held in the air for seven hours with their heads buried in the sand? The dispatcher communicates that the airport is closed. Fuel On Board is obtained and an alternate is selected in real time. Airplane diverts. No drama here.

Did you just happen to forget that ACARS coverage over the continental US is universal? Not to mention the fact that airplanes have radios with which they can communicate with company on the ground.

And because nobody reads anything on here, again, flights in the US are automatically planned with 45 minutes of reserve fuel for just these instances. Can't plan to burn it, but it's in your back pocket if you ever need it. 45 minutes is enough to divert from SAN in an ordinary 737/A320 to about 30 suitable airports.
 
tu204
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:35 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
All it takes is one airport closure after the "point of no return", and the plane and its passengers & crew are out of luck. Remember the great San Diego power outage of 2011? For seven hours, no one was able to figure out how to turn the lights in this county back on, and SAN was closed.

Imagine that the flight is flying in on fumes, due to "dispatch reliability". What's it going to do? Try and land at SAN in the dark? And the be stuck with no communication once it has landed?

There's just too much that can happen on the ground that can affect traffic. Having no alternate plan is a recipe for disaster.


Am I correct in understanding that SAN had no backup emergency power to run communication and runway lights? :shock:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
BravoOne
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:52 pm

US carriers are frequently dispatched with No Alternate Required under the operators OpSpecs (Domestic). Not a big deal and no one is going to run on fumes getting their destinations. Redispatch on an international leg may delete the requirement for an Alternate once released to continue. Example: LAX to TPE, with HKG as the desired destination assuming you arrive at the redispatch point with adequate fuel onboard you may continue to HKG. I seem to recall that the destination airport needed to be within 6 hours from the redispatch point.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:58 pm

tu204 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
All it takes is one airport closure after the "point of no return", and the plane and its passengers & crew are out of luck. Remember the great San Diego power outage of 2011? For seven hours, no one was able to figure out how to turn the lights in this county back on, and SAN was closed.

Imagine that the flight is flying in on fumes, due to "dispatch reliability". What's it going to do? Try and land at SAN in the dark? And the be stuck with no communication once it has landed?

There's just too much that can happen on the ground that can affect traffic. Having no alternate plan is a recipe for disaster.


Am I correct in understanding that SAN had no backup emergency power to run communication and runway lights? :shock:


The blackout in September, 2011, left SAN with runway lights, but no power whatsoever to the terminals or anywhere else. Planes could land, but they wouldn't be able to dock, baggage couldn't be processed, and no planes could be dispatched. Virtually all planes landed in the L.A. area, and flew back once power was restored.

If I had to guess, I would say the back-up power supply is there for the most minimal of operations, such as communication and runway lights; however, this is with the understanding that in a power outage, until the power is restored, SAN airport operations are like everywhere else - non-existent.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:02 pm

Planes park, they don’t dock, except for flying boats and floatplanes.

GF
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:07 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
All it takes is one airport closure after the "point of no return", and the plane and its passengers & crew are out of luck. Remember the great San Diego power outage of 2011? For seven hours, no one was able to figure out how to turn the lights in this county back on, and SAN was closed.

Imagine that the flight is flying in on fumes, due to "dispatch reliability". What's it going to do? Try and land at SAN in the dark? And the be stuck with no communication once it has landed?

There's just too much that can happen on the ground that can affect traffic. Having no alternate plan is a recipe for disaster.


It's not quite as dramatic as that. Alternates are a planning item, not a suicide pact. Once you've dispatched nothing stops you from diverting to another airport as needed. Say you're flying Salt Lake City to San Diego with no listed alternate, and Godzilla wrecks the runway at San Diego. Nothing stopping you from landing at LAX, Burbank, Long Beach or Las Vegas even though none of those are on the flight plan.

Same as we use EDTO/ETOPS when flying over Russia. Just because we've filed Helsinki and Novosibirsk as en route alternates doesn't mean we can't use Moscow, Yekaterinburg, Almaty, Astana, Surgut and so forth if we have to.

In general, there is no "point of no return", except with Island Reserve. E.g. flying to Perth you might not have an alternate. This simply means the reserve fuel goes to two hours at cruise altitude, the weather minima are much more strict, and you must make a decision at the point of no return. No aircraft has ever ended up running out of fuel because of this.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:55 pm

BravoOne wrote:
US carriers are frequently dispatched with No Alternate Required under the operators OpSpecs (Domestic). Not a big deal and no one is going to run on fumes getting their destinations. Redispatch on an international leg may delete the requirement for an Alternate once released to continue. Example: LAX to TPE, with HKG as the desired destination assuming you arrive at the redispatch point with adequate fuel onboard you may continue to HKG. I seem to recall that the destination airport needed to be within 6 hours from the redispatch point.

we did it at FDX. the wx had to be forecast above a given min. no biggie
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:10 am

I should have said we called it a re-release but still the same
 
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SAAFNAV
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:41 pm

anshabhi wrote:
This flight was specially planned in coordination with ATC and regulators to ensure nothing weird happens


Wow what a great idea! Instead of studying emergency procedures, single-engine flight and forced landing, next time I'll just phone my local ATC and tell him I plan no emergencies for this flight.
CFI/Gr. III, L-382 Loadmaster, ex C-130B Navigator
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:59 pm

CosmicCruiser wrote:
I should have said we called it a re-release but still the same


not to confuse 2 different things. the no alt plan was different thing than an int'l re-release.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:27 pm

Back in the late '70's in 747 Performance Engineering at Boeing we used to do calculations for re-dispatch and double re-dispatch flights from the US to the far east. ICAO requires a 5% of trip fuel reserve/contingency amount which could be 15,000 lbs on along flight, so the object was to dispatch to an airfield say 60% of the way to your final destination. At that point your 5% reserve requirement drops to about 6,000 lbs (9000 lbs more trip fuel). If needed, another re-dispatch could be accomplished 90% of the way to your final destination allowing another say 2000 lbs of reserve fuel to be converted to trip fuel. (All numbers are extremely rough approximations)

In the end you've increased your intial 300,000 lb trip fuel to 311,000 lbs allowing you to legally fly to your destination which couldn't have been done without re-dispatching.
 
BravoOne
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:41 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
Back in the late '70's in 747 Performance Engineering at Boeing we used to do calculations for re-dispatch and double re-dispatch flights from the US to the far east. ICAO requires a 5% of trip fuel reserve/contingency amount which could be 15,000 lbs on along flight, so the object was to dispatch to an airfield say 60% of the way to your final destination. At that point your 5% reserve requirement drops to about 6,000 lbs (9000 lbs more trip fuel). If needed, another re-dispatch could be accomplished 90% of the way to your final destination allowing another say 2000 lbs of reserve fuel to be converted to trip fuel. (All numbers are extremely rough approximations)

In the end you've increased your intial 300,000 lb trip fuel to 311,000 lbs allowing you to legally fly to your destination which couldn't have been done without re-dispatching.


You say ICAO? I have worked flight plans using EASA and of course FAA rules but not familiar with the ICAO requirements you mention? EASA is hard to pin down with regards to a fixed number, whereas FAR 121 uses a fixed 10%, sometimes called "Flag Fuel." Numerous operators have sought relief from the Flag Fuel requirements on the NAT. Do you have a point of reference for the ICAO language?
 
BravoOne
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:41 pm

CosmicCruiser wrote:
CosmicCruiser wrote:
I should have said we called it a re-release but still the same


not to confuse 2 different things. the no alt plan was different thing than an int'l re-release.




Agree:)
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:35 pm

BravoOne wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
Back in the late '70's in 747 Performance Engineering at Boeing we used to do calculations for re-dispatch and double re-dispatch flights from the US to the far east. ICAO requires a 5% of trip fuel reserve/contingency amount which could be 15,000 lbs on along flight, so the object was to dispatch to an airfield say 60% of the way to your final destination. At that point your 5% reserve requirement drops to about 6,000 lbs (9000 lbs more trip fuel). If needed, another re-dispatch could be accomplished 90% of the way to your final destination allowing another say 2000 lbs of reserve fuel to be converted to trip fuel. (All numbers are extremely rough approximations)

In the end you've increased your intial 300,000 lb trip fuel to 311,000 lbs allowing you to legally fly to your destination which couldn't have been done without re-dispatching.


You say ICAO? I have worked flight plans using EASA and of course FAA rules but not familiar with the ICAO requirements you mention? EASA is hard to pin down with regards to a fixed number, whereas FAR 121 uses a fixed 10%, sometimes called "Flag Fuel." Numerous operators have sought relief from the Flag Fuel requirements on the NAT. Do you have a point of reference for the ICAO language?


ICAO sets the basic standards and national organizations can adopt those or more stringent requirements. ICAO Annex 6, Part 1, Section 4 sets the requirements for commercial airplanes. Been a while since I've had to deal with any of this so the 5% may or may not be up to date -- the object was to show the benefit of re-dispatch.
 
zuckie13
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:15 pm

So it took five captains and one other guy to fly two hours from New Delhi to Hyderabad in a plane designed for two pilot operations?
I guess they needed the extra eyes on the fuel gauge......
 
BravoOne
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:55 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
Back in the late '70's in 747 Performance Engineering at Boeing we used to do calculations for re-dispatch and double re-dispatch flights from the US to the far east. ICAO requires a 5% of trip fuel reserve/contingency amount which could be 15,000 lbs on along flight, so the object was to dispatch to an airfield say 60% of the way to your final destination. At that point your 5% reserve requirement drops to about 6,000 lbs (9000 lbs more trip fuel). If needed, another re-dispatch could be accomplished 90% of the way to your final destination allowing another say 2000 lbs of reserve fuel to be converted to trip fuel. (All numbers are extremely rough approximations)

In the end you've increased your intial 300,000 lb trip fuel to 311,000 lbs allowing you to legally fly to your destination which couldn't have been done without re-dispatching.


You say ICAO? I have worked flight plans using EASA and of course FAA rules but not familiar with the ICAO requirements you mention? EASA is hard to pin down with regards to a fixed number, whereas FAR 121 uses a fixed 10%, sometimes called "Flag Fuel." Numerous operators have sought relief from the Flag Fuel requirements on the NAT. Do you have a point of reference for the ICAO language?


ICAO sets the basic standards and national organizations can adopt those or more stringent requirements. ICAO Annex 6, Part 1, Section 4 sets the requirements for commercial airplanes. Been a while since I've had to deal with any of this so the 5% may or may not be up to date -- the object was to show the benefit of re-dispatch.



Thanks for the reference. I just hate to get into any ICAO docs if I can avoid it.

Actually I think I saw a flexible 3% awhile back, but like everything else, my memory is getting dimmer if I'm not actually using the data daily.

Thanks again.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:39 pm

The AI Facebook post makes it sound like a Earth-shattering, historic trick, instead of what is standard procedure everywhere else. Then again, having been surprised by Indian ATC, perhaps it is ground breaking there. I put in the hold at the VABB LOM just as I crossed it in heavy rain. Another time had a totally unannounced 45 minute hold followed by 30 minutes of aimless vectoring going into Mumbai one night on a short flight from Bangalore. Chaos.

GF
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:22 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The AI Facebook post makes it sound like a Earth-shattering, historic trick, instead of what is standard procedure everywhere else. Then again, having been surprised by Indian ATC, perhaps it is ground breaking there. I put in the hold at the VABB LOM just as I crossed it in heavy rain. Another time had a totally unannounced 45 minute hold followed by 30 minutes of aimless vectoring going into Mumbai one night on a short flight from Bangalore. Chaos.

GF


Don't forget everyone talking at the same time on the radio... :)

This press release demonstrates how some cultures are more prone to hyperbole.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:31 pm

Yes, the leg over from Muscat is always a treat on HF!

GF
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Wed May 01, 2019 1:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, the leg over from Muscat is always a treat on HF!

GF


Nothing quite like it! :wideeyed:
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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zeke
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Wed May 01, 2019 1:40 am

7BOEING7 wrote:
ICAO sets the basic standards and national organizations can adopt those or more stringent requirements. ICAO Annex 6, Part 1, Section 4 sets the requirements for commercial airplanes. Been a while since I've had to deal with any of this so the 5% may or may not be up to date -- the object was to show the benefit of re-dispatch.


The current reference is the “Flight Planning and Fuel Management Manual” ICAO Doc 9976. Appendix 2 to Chapter 3. shows a U.S.A. OpSpec that provides conditional relief from IFR no-alternate requirements (Paragraph C355, Alternate Aerodrome IFR Weather Minimums: 14 CFR Part 121).

Under EU OPS the requirements are

1) 5% of the planned trip fuel or, in the event of in-flight re-planning, 5% of the trip fuel from the point of re-planning to the destination; or
2) Not less than 3% of the planned trip fuel or, in the event of in-flight re-planning, 3% of the trip fuel for the remainder of the flight, provided that an En route Alternate (ERA) aerodrome is available for the second part of the trip; or
3) performance based contingency

We use performance based contingency, we track every flight path, and all fuel useage for every flight, we have the planned vs actual fuel for every flight number (ie by time of day and city pair) by type of aircraft it was operated with and build up the contingency base statistical data (need a minimum of 90 days). Typically we arrive at each destination with 20 minutes of fuel regardless if it is a 3 hr or 16 hr flight. On a 16 hr flight it might take 10 hours to burn off enough fuel to get below MLW.

Personally I don’t think it is smart for domestic no alternate planning within India due to the lack of suitable domestic infrastructure. We have had flights go to Delhi for example and in the Delhi TMA ATC has a failure, and instruct all aircraft to take up any heading they require the airport is closed.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Wed May 01, 2019 3:03 am

Is that 20 minutes to dusty tanks or 20 minutes to final reserve?

GF
 
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zeke
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Wed May 01, 2019 10:54 am

20 min above fuel required to alternate fuel plus final reserve. Even for a close in alternate (like MFM for HKG) it would mean a plan to arrive at the destination with around 80 minutes duration.
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Gr8Circle
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Fri May 03, 2019 11:58 am

zuckie13 wrote:
So it took five captains and one other guy to fly two hours from New Delhi to Hyderabad in a plane designed for two pilot operations?
I guess they needed the extra eyes on the fuel gauge......


What's your point here? It was the first such flight......are you suggesting that all future flights have multiple pilots? Be clear in your comments....
 
zuckie13
Posts: 312
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Fri May 03, 2019 4:12 pm

Gr8Circle wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
So it took five captains and one other guy to fly two hours from New Delhi to Hyderabad in a plane designed for two pilot operations?
I guess they needed the extra eyes on the fuel gauge......


What's your point here? It was the first such flight......are you suggesting that all future flights have multiple pilots? Be clear in your comments....


Ok, I'll be more clear.

A bunch of pilots wanted their names in the news so the "helped" fly the plane on this flight.

Typically if you were going to see extra bodies on the plane that could do something useful it would be engineers or regulators, not extra pilots with nothing to do.
 
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SierraPacific
Posts: 435
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Re: AI completes dispatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Sat May 04, 2019 12:05 am

zuckie13 wrote:
Gr8Circle wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
So it took five captains and one other guy to fly two hours from New Delhi to Hyderabad in a plane designed for two pilot operations?
I guess they needed the extra eyes on the fuel gauge......


What's your point here? It was the first such flight......are you suggesting that all future flights have multiple pilots? Be clear in your comments....


Ok, I'll be more clear.

A bunch of pilots wanted their names in the news so the "helped" fly the plane on this flight.

Typically if you were going to see extra bodies on the plane that could do something useful it would be engineers or regulators, not extra pilots with nothing to do.


I would assume that they were either check airmen or other management pilots that were involved in this. It is relatively common for extra pilots to tag along on flights that have some sort of first to either add to training or other flight operations reasons.

I don't see why an engineer would be necessary since this exercise was mainly done by dispatching and flight ops. I am not sure why you were so adversarial against the pilots but that is A.net for you :roll:
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: AI completes despatch with no alternate destination B787 flight

Tue May 07, 2019 10:33 pm

FatCat wrote:
140 Kgs of fuel even on an efficient B787 are 2 or 3 minutes on the tarmac or maybe 20 minutes of APU...
sounds like a joke to me


Or a failure of imagination on your part.
140kg per 2 flights a day per 300 flying days per year is 84 tons a year. An airline with 25 787 will save 1.5 Million USD a year or 30 million in the life of the fleet. That's one 737 more flying for you...
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