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william
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LaGaudia's visual expressway approach

Sun May 19, 2019 12:31 am

1. How long has this approach been around? Since the Eastern Shuttle days? Trying to imagine this in a 727.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxRFIneSTT4

2. At what time in the approach does the Pilot goes to manual flying?

Thank you for answering my questions.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: LaGaudia's visual expressway approach

Sun May 19, 2019 12:44 am

The video you linked to shows the pilot disengaging the autopilot shortly after passing 2500. The approach has you flying along the localizer for runway 4, then breaking off to the right once crossing DIALS.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: LaGaudia's visual expressway approach

Sun May 19, 2019 3:32 am

I flew it in Citations and Falcons as early as 1980; then in the 727 at EAL in mid-80s. The A300 and L1011 guys also did the Expressway to 31. Pretty standard stuff at KLGA. You can use the autopilot, but more fun hand flying from DIALS. In the 727, It separates the pilots from wannabes especially on a day with strong NW winds. The days with the “ski jump” at the approach end of 31 was another attention getter.

Santos Dumont in Rio is similar with shorter runways, no EMAS and water all around it. The circle at MCAS Kaneohe or NAS North Island in a heavy is another fun one.

GF
 
Woodreau
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Re: LaGaudia's visual expressway approach

Sun May 19, 2019 9:55 am

It depends on the airline and the pilot. These days you can load the RNAV Expressway Visual 31 into the box and the FMS will provide vertical and lateral guidance from the localizer 4 to DIALS then along the expressway and the turn to final.

The pilot can either handfly with or without the guidance. Or let the autopilot fly it and disconnect at autopilot minimums when lined up with runway 31.

If an air carrier operator wants to have the RNAV visual available to use they have to apply to get FAA approval to fly the RNAV Visual procedure.

So today if I just want to be lazy, once cleared for the expressway visual, I just press the APPR push button, the FMA annunciates “FINAL APP,” the autopilot flies the maneuver and leaves me at 500ft AGL .5nm short of the threshold on the extended centerline of runway 31. Press the autopilot disconnect and land from there.

But it’s way more fun to do autopilot off flight directors off autothrottles off and wiggle the side stick, jockey the thrust levers and fly it yourself.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: LaGaudia's visual expressway approach

Sun May 19, 2019 1:24 pm

Woodreau wrote:
... autopilot off flight directors off autothrottles off and wiggle the side stick, jockey the thrust levers and fly it yourself.


:bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup: Classic. Go, Woodreau.
 
timz
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Re: LaGuardia's visual expressway approach

Sun May 19, 2019 8:31 pm

As I recall, when La Guardia first got jets they weren't allowed to land runway 4 -- so maybe the 31 Visual dates from then.

(Dunno if the prohibition was removed as soon as rwy 4 was extended to 7000 ft.)
 
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AirKevin
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Re: LaGuardia's visual expressway approach

Sun May 19, 2019 9:00 pm

timz wrote:
As I recall, when La Guardia first got jets they weren't allowed to land runway 4 -- so maybe the 31 Visual dates from then.

(Dunno if the prohibition was removed as soon as rwy 4 was extended to 7000 ft.)

Unless anything has changed recently, it was removed at some point since I've seen traffic land on runway 4 in the past, though the last time I saw it happen was 2012.
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Web500sjc
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Re: LaGuardia's visual expressway approach)

Mon May 20, 2019 2:42 pm

AirKevin wrote:
timz wrote:
As I recall, when La Guardia first got jets they weren't allowed to land runway 4 -- so maybe the 31 Visual dates from then.

(Dunno if the prohibition was removed as soon as rwy 4 was extended to 7000 ft.)

Unless anything has changed recently, it was removed at some point since I've seen traffic land on runway 4 in the past, though the last time I saw it happen was 2012.

Landing 4 at LGA is a pretty regular event, generally done if there is wind from the east in good weather or a wind from the north in bad weather. Landing 13 OTOH is relatively rare, it is only done if the wind and weather dictate the use of that particular ILS approach (North to East wind with fog) or 4/22 is closed and the wind dictates 13 be used.

From the FAA OIS page/east directory/LGA/ ™ Tips. Link, https://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/
LGA prefers to depart 13 and arrive 22 (calm winds or a wind from the south or east). 80 movements an hour.

Following that is depart 31, arrive 22. 78-79 movements an hour, but creates issues with the proximity Delta terminals to 31 (limits space for pushbacks and sequencing of departures).

The third choice would be Depart 4, and use the Expressway Visual 31. 76-78 movement per an hour.

The fourth choice is depart 31, arrive 4. 74 movements an hour. Generally when the wind is messing up the spacing and turns on the EXPWY Visual, but JFK needs to use the 22s/4s

5th is depart 4, LOC 31. 74-76 movements an hour, forces JFK to use 13 L/R or 31L/R and won’t allow JFK to run simultaneous approaches to 31L/R.

The Worst of the dual runway configurations is Depart 4, arrive ILS 13. 60 movements an hour (very similar to the single runway airport capacity), Rarely used due to the impact on EWR and TEB. LGA and EWR basically share a piece of airspace over TEB with this configuration, so it looks like they have to sequence an EWR arrival, than a LGA arrival, repeat. Not much of an issue for LGA as they needed that space for a departure, but it would halve the arrival rate for EWR.

There is no plan to ever depart from 22 if both runways are in use.

All the other configurations are single runway with an Stated capacity of 56-64 movements an hour, but the approaches have the same airspace conflict issues, and certain runways have a large distance between the hold short line and the takeoff position on the runway. The Expressway visual 31, depart 31 is stated to be the best single runway configuration (62-64 movements an hour). Runway 4 single runway is the worst configuration from a capacity standpoint, 56 movements per an hour.

The simple rules for LGA: 1)22 is always a landing runway, 13 is always a departure runway. 2)When 4 and 31 are used together, good weather means landing 31- bad weather means landing 4.
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vikkyvik
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Re: LaGaudia's visual expressway approach

Mon May 20, 2019 3:27 pm

Woodreau wrote:
the autopilot flies the maneuver and leaves me at 500ft AGL .5nm short of the threshold


Maybe I'm misreading, but that seems quite high quite close to the runway.
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AirKevin
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Re: LaGuardia's visual expressway approach)

Mon May 20, 2019 3:44 pm

Web500sjc wrote:
There is no plan to ever depart from 22 if both runways are in use.

When did they stop doing that. I remember seeing departures from 22 at some point around 2011-2012, but it wasn't something that happened very often.
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Web500sjc
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Re: LaGuardia's visual expressway approach)

Mon May 20, 2019 5:06 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
There is no plan to ever depart from 22 if both runways are in use.

When did they stop doing that. I remember seeing departures from 22 at some point around 2011-2012, but it wasn't something that happened very often.


If they are using ONLY runway 22, then they will use it for departures as well as landings. As for when they stopped using 22 for departures in an intersecting runway configuration, I am not sure.

At the current point it doesn't make sense to use 22 for departures when using 31 or 13. If the winds favor the use of 22 as one of the crossing runways to be used, 22 is tied with 13 for the best/lowest approach minimums available at the airport, and the ILS to 22 doesn't affect any other NY area airports, like 13 does. Additionally 22 only has room to hold 3-4 aircraft on the departure side of the runway, so most of the line up would be on the opposite side of the arrival runway (probably SW on Taxiway B and then make the u-turn on Taxiway E and NE on Taxiway A. This allows taxiway B and P to be used for aircraft exiting the landing runway) and there would need to be an aircraft crossing after every arrival to ensure departures are not impeded by a lack of aircraft. Finally, the departure line up on the terminal side of the arrival runway would interfere with traffic exiting after landing on 31 in this potential configuration, it would require an aircraft exit prior to S or continue through the runway intersection and have a hole built in to the departure line to allow a crossing on G and in to the terminal.


Compare this configuration to arriving 22 and departing 31 ( which is a very congested configuration) Taxiway B is the takeoff line, and Taxiway A becomes a one lane road that either takes Delta A/C to the back of the departure line, or allows Delta A/C to move to their terminal. Traffic landing 22 move through the runway intersection quickly ( allowing the departure to depart) and they are not encumbered by any aircraft blocking a potential exit ( additionally landing aircraft don't have to cross a runway).

Alternatively, using 13 for departures and 22 for arrivals- aircraft landing 22 are quickly through the runway intersection, the potential runway crossing areas, there is ample room at the threshold of 13 for ATC to sequence and hold aircraft for departure, and landing traffic doesn't have to cross a runway to get to their parking area.

LGA just isn't built to allow departures off 22 in an intersecting configuration.
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timz
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Re: LaGuardia's visual expressway approach

Mon May 20, 2019 9:39 pm

timz wrote:
(Dunno if the prohibition was removed as soon as rwy 4 was extended to 7000 ft.)

To clarify: we know the prohibition on jets landing runway 4 was removed -- dunno if it was removed circa 1966, or later.
 
Woodreau
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Re: LaGaudia's visual expressway approach

Tue May 21, 2019 4:41 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
Maybe I'm misreading, but that seems quite high quite close to the runway.


Yes my mistake. Probably not .5nm from the threshold but at 500ft AGL Probably more like 1.5nm but I’m usually handflying and not paying attention to exactly where I am when I’m at 500ft AGL.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.

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