77H
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 12:08 pm

Looking for insight on the “trend” with adding/keeping door 3 vs adding/deleting door 2 on recent narrowbodys.

Boeing added door 3 as standard to the 739 and is present on the 7M9 and upcoming 7MX. Airbus has elected to delete door 2 and retain door 3, (adding overwing exits) on the 21N. What prompted Boeing to add door 3 instead of a door 2 like the 757 and why has Airbus deleted door 2 instead of door 3 on the 21N? What are the benefits of D3 vs D2 in this instance?

Additionally, the non-ER 739 came without a door 3 and the original 321/21Ns had a door 2 so what has driven A & B to stop offering the door 2 option or no door/plug 3 on the 21N and 7M9/X respectively? For airlines who have earlier build 21Ns specifically this decision automatically creates 2 cabin layouts.

77H
 
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AECM
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 12:22 pm

The type and number of doors depend on the maximum seat capacity. The B739 seats up to 189 passengers and the B739/ER seats up to 220 passengers and that's why it has the 3rd door. For example the upcoming Ryanair B737MAX200 basically is a B737MAX8 with 200 seats and therefore needs to have the 3rd door although the fuselage length remains the same. On the A321 Airbus removed the 2nd door and replaced it with overwing emergency exits and depending on the cabin layout and capacity these overwing exits can be both activated or only one of them.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 12:29 pm

Also given that the dense economy cabin is at the rear of the aircraft it probably makes more sense to have an emergency door there
 
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cosyr
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 12:34 pm

A lot of airlines have found they want more flexibility with First/Business and how many seats to fit in. The 757 has been a constricting aircraft for some airlines, who don't want to have 24+ F seats, but also don't want to have a 2 row Y section if they were to remove some F. Also, airlines are catering less, so need less galley space then they did when the 757 was designed, or even the A321. If you have a door behind the wing, that is going to break up Y a little bit, but there are a lot of ways to address that, having a high pitch row, removing a window seat, etc., and then each airline can adjust F as they need.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 12:35 pm

I think the question has to do with why is the additional door is behind the wing?

When Boeing had to add the large mid cabin emergency exit on the 737-900, they elected to have that door behind the wing. When Airbus decided to change the door configuration of the a321, they elected to remove door 2 add the over-wing exits and keep door 3. Is there an advantage to keeping/placing the mid cabin door behind the wing?
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BrianDromey
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 1:08 pm

Airbus said deleting Door 2 on the A321 gave their airline customers more flexibility with the size and placement of premium cabins. The days of mid-cabin Lav's and Galleys seem to be gone.
I don't think any airline regularly boarded from L2 on the A321 - the exception being bmi - back when they existed. The leading edge of the engine is apparently very close to the jet bridge/stairs if using L2.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 8:25 pm

I think the distance from the overwing exits to the aft exit is too large on the 739/A321 for normal configurations. So you require the exit just aft of the wing anyway.
But why over-wing exits rather than a full Door 2? Two small over-wing exits take up less room than the large door ahead of the wing and can be plugged more easily. More usable floor for both high and low density configurations.

The 767-300 also has 3 exit options: 2 overwing exits, 1 door & 1 overwing exit, or 2 doors. I think the 2 overwing exits were the more popular one, since they maximize the available room.
 
shamrock137
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 9:16 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Airbus said deleting Door 2 on the A321 gave their airline customers more flexibility with the size and placement of premium cabins. The days of mid-cabin Lav's and Galleys seem to be gone.
I don't think any airline regularly boarded from L2 on the A321 - the exception being bmi - back when they existed. The leading edge of the engine is apparently very close to the jet bridge/stairs if using L2.


Bingo, premium layouts in the 321LR's and NEO's may be the next big thing. Taking out the L2 allows flexibility to add more J seats, adjust a mid cabin lav to a better spot, and keep a relatively high density Y cabin. My prediction is that if airlines truly embrace the premium heavy low density model for US transcon or Trans Atlantic a la AA, B6, DL etc, we may even see the 3 door get plugged if they are low density enough, similar to some of the 737's where its just over wing exits.
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strfyr51
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Thu May 23, 2019 11:00 pm

The Exit and Emergency exits are where they are to satisfy the FAA and EASA. Because airlines want to put more seats on airplanes? Is of no consequence when applied to safety and Emergency Egress.
 
Moosefire
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Fri May 24, 2019 3:26 am

strfyr51 wrote:
The Exit and Emergency exits are where they are to satisfy the FAA and EASA. Because airlines want to put more seats on airplanes? Is of no consequence when applied to safety and Emergency Egress.


But it’s certainly relevant for the relocation/redistribution of exits on the latest generation of these aircraft.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Door 2 Delete vs Door 3

Sat May 25, 2019 1:39 pm

I think the reason there is no door 2 on the longer 737 is related to the number of frames fwd of the engine inlet. There are quite a few less than the 757, that would move the L2 a lot closer to the L1. Another factor is the L3 door on the 737 is an emergency only door just like the 767-400 and 757-300. It can not be easily opened with out blowing the slide. The slide cover has to be removed and the full deactivation must be done before opening the door.

It's also not as wide as the entrance doors and the clear path to the door is narrow also. It fulfills the emergency exit requirements if needed but can be easily deactivated if the seat count does not require it.

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