User avatar
MrHMSH
Topic Author
Posts: 2454
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

SQ A359 MTOWs.

Sun May 26, 2019 1:53 am

SQ operates a variety of A359s with different MTOWs, I'd like to ask some questions about this.

What's the MTOW of their 'regular' A359s, are any of the earlier ones a lower weight variant? If not, were they delivered differently but lower MTOW birds brought up to the same standard after delivery? I know the ULRs and regional variants also have different MTOWs, but they are all consistent within their subfleet.

Regards,
Martin
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19343
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Sun May 26, 2019 2:31 am

Not to be a buzzkill, but this kind of information is proprietary unless SQ or Airbus have published it publically.

There is nothing stopping you from trying to read the numbers off high resolution cockpit pictures posted online, though. :)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2646
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Sun May 26, 2019 4:28 am

At the very least 275t I’d think.
 
wangjm777
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Sun May 26, 2019 11:42 pm

It could also be “variable". There is really no public information.
 
User avatar
mfranjic
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:54 am

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Mon May 27, 2019 9:51 am


MrHMSH wrote:
SQ operates a variety of A359s with different MTOWs, I'd like to ask some questions about this.

What's the MTOW of their 'regular' A359s, are any of the earlier ones a lower weight variant? If not, were they delivered differently but lower MTOW birds brought up to the same standard after delivery? I know the ULRs and regional variants also have different MTOWs, but they are all consistent within their subfleet.

Regards,
Martin


Singapore Airlines (IATA:SQ / ICAO:SIA) has three different cabin configurations.(IMG.1) on their fleet of, for the time being 35, Image.A350-941 aircraft:

Image.Image.A350-900 (Standard) configuration (MTOW: 275.000 kg / 606.272 lb), cabin configuration: C42 W24 Y187, which operates predominantly the long-haul flights from Singapore to destinations in Europe, the USA and South Africa. The aircraft is also used on selected flights to Australia, Japan and some shorter flights to Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta and Hong Kong.

Image.Image.A350-900 Regional configuration (MTOW: 250.000 kg / 551.156 lb), cabin configuration: C40 Y263, which operates short- and medium-haul flights from Singapore across the Asia-Pacific region. The first aircraft was delivered in November 2018, and entered service on 17. Dec 2018.

Image.Image.A350-900 ULR configuration (MTOW: 280.000 kg / 617.295 lb), cabin configuration: C67 W94, which operates ultra long-haul non-stop flights from Singapore to the USA in a 2-class configuration.

……Image
……IMG.1 – Singapore AirlinesAirbus A350 aircraft by the cabin configurations (18. May 2019)

In the Singapore Airlines’ fleet the Image.A350-900 Regional aircraft come as the complement to their medium-haul fleet, with a somewhat smaller seating capacity (C40 Y263), but capable, according to SQ’s CEO, for a little longer distances in the comparison with their Image.787-10 aircraft with the cabin configuration C36 Y301 and powered by two Image.Trent 1000-J3, three-shaft, high-bypass, turbofan engines (fan diameter: 2.844,8 mm / 112,0 in; BPR: 10,0:1; eng. architecture: 1F–8IPC=6HPC1HPT=1IPT–6LPT), OPR: 50,0:1, rated at 347,54 kN / 35.439 kgf / 78.129 lbf.

Image

Some sources have cited incorrectly the Singapore AirlinesImage.A350-900 Regional aircraft (MTOW: 250.000 kg / 551.156 lb) are powered by two Rolls-Royce Trent XWB-75, three-shaft, high-bypass turbofans, rated at 330,06 kN / 33.657 kgf / 74.200 lbf. However, from the recent issue of the CAAS Singapore Aircraft Register, as well as from the airline’s website, it is visible that all the versions of SQ’s Image.A350-900 aircraft are powered by two Image.Trent XWB-84, three-shaft, high-bypass turbofans (fan diameter: 2.997,2mm / 118,0 in; BPR: 9,6:1; engine architecture: 1F–8IPC=6HPC1HPT=2IPT–6LPT), OPR: 50,0:1, rated at 374,54 kN / 38.192 kgf / 84.200 lbf.

Besides, the recent issue of the type-certificate data sheet (TCDS) of the Image.A350 aircraft: Image.TCDS.EASA.A.151 Issue 18, dated on 15. May 2019, does not connect Trent XWB-75 engine / mod 113768.(IMG.2) nor with one of the two Weight Variants (WV005 and WV012) which include MTOW of 250.00 kg / 551.156 lb.(IMG.3).

…...Image
…...IMG.2 - Airbus A350-900 TCDS - Engines

…...Image
…...IMG.3 - Airbus A350-900 TCDS - Maximum Certified Weights

Two e-mails I have received from the airline confirm that all the variants of the Singapore AirlinesAirbus A350-900 aircraft are fitted with the same type of the Image engine - Trent XWB-84 ...

According to those relevant sources, Japan Airlines is the first airline to operate derated Airbus A350-900 frames; WV017 (MTOW: 210.000 kg / 462.971 lb), aimed for those domestic routes (cabin configuration F12 C94 Y263). It seems quite possible, and there are clear indications about it, the aircraft, since it will be powered by Image.Trent XWB-75, three-shaft, high-bypass turbofans (fan diameter: 2.997,2mm / 118,0 in; BPR: 9,6:1; engine architecture: 1F–8IPC=6HPC1HPT=2IPT–6LPT), OPR: 50,0:1, rated at 330,06 kN / 33.657 kgf / 74.200 lbf, will be certified as the model Airbus A350-942, rather than as the existing Airbus A350-941 powered by two Rolls-Royce Trent XWB-84, three-shaft, high-bypass turbofans, rated at 374,54 kN / 38.192 kgf / 84.200 lbf.

It means soon we might see a new model label in the Image.A350 aircraft’s TCDS, related to different type of the engines fitted to the Airbus A350-900 aircraft of the Weight VARIANT WV017 / Mod number 113768 (MTOW: 210.000 kg / 462.971 lb). Something like this…

Image
IMG.4 - Possible Airbus A350-900 Type Label changes related to the engine model

MrHMSH, if You want to read something more related to Image.A350 aircraft, please open the link below …

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411835&start=500#p21341689

Mario
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile" - Albert Einstein
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Topic Author
Posts: 2454
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Mon May 27, 2019 9:57 am

mfranjic wrote:
Mario


Your insight, information and graphics are greatly appreciated, couldn't have asked for a better answer!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Mon May 27, 2019 11:05 am

mfranjic,

The only place you see the W/V is in the list of modifications incorporated in the aircraft in the AFM. It is normal to have multiple W/V on the same airframe. The operator then can choose how they wish to use it.

The Trent XWB-84 and -75 are the same engine, it is just a software limit.

These are just mods made to the base airframe.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
SAAFNAV
Posts: 573
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:41 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Mon May 27, 2019 3:42 pm

Wow so many emojis.
I think most people here understand the term Boeing without their logo needed to be added. Let's not go back to hieroglyphics.

But thanks for the good data.
L-382 Loadmaster; ex C-130B Navigator
 
User avatar
akoma
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:51 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Tue May 28, 2019 4:30 am

wangjm777 wrote:
It could also be “variable". There is really no public information.


There are no "variable" weight versions.

They tend to fly their regular 268T A359s to places slightly closer to main base and the regular 275T A359s further away, including to SFO. However, in the early days, they also flew their regular 268T A359s to SFO on various occasions.
 
wangjm777
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Tue May 28, 2019 4:56 am

akoma wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
It could also be “variable". There is really no public information.


There are no "variable" weight versions.

They tend to fly their regular 268T A359s to places slightly closer to main base and the regular 275T A359s further away, including to SFO. However, in the early days, they also flew their regular 268T A359s to SFO on various occasions.


I was under the impression that SQ certifies their A359 between 268t - 275t depending on the mission. I didn’t know they have separate sub-fleets of 268t and 275t within their “regular” A359.

Why did they send 268t to SFO? Is it because the demand is low and/or the wind is favorable?
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4869
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Tue May 28, 2019 5:21 am

One aircraft can be certified to different weights. The airline then chooses to declare what weight variant they will operate the type at a specific airport to save on fees where they don't need the full capacity.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19343
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Tue May 28, 2019 6:06 am

akoma wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
It could also be “variable". There is really no public information.


There are no "variable" weight versions.



Yes, there are. Same as on the A330. You can dispatch one flight with a certain MTOW, and the next flight using the same tail with another MTOW.
Last edited by Starlionblue on Tue May 28, 2019 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3885
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Tue May 28, 2019 6:10 am

MrHMSH wrote:
SQ operates a variety of A359s with different MTOWs, I'd like to ask some questions about this.

What's the MTOW of their 'regular' A359s, are any of the earlier ones a lower weight variant? If not, were they delivered differently but lower MTOW birds brought up to the same standard after delivery? I know the ULRs and regional variants also have different MTOWs, but they are all consistent within their subfleet.

Regards,
Martin

Having worked with Airbus products? Airbus is famous for having different weight variants of the same Model. An Airline might order models for a certain region of the world they wish to fly to, and Tailor their fleet accordingly. It seems strnge to me as I think it limits the Resale Value of the airplane, But? I'm not selling airplanes and It's worked so far..
 
User avatar
akoma
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:51 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Tue May 28, 2019 7:52 am

Starlionblue wrote:
akoma wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
It could also be “variable". There is really no public information.


There are no "variable" weight versions.



Yes, there are. Same as on the A330. You can dispatch one flight with a certain MTOW, and the next flight using the same tail with another MTOW.


This probably works for certain registrations and jurisdictions; I am not familiar with such arrangements. The airline we are discussing has aircraft with fixed regulated MTOWs.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Wed May 29, 2019 12:41 am

akoma wrote:
This probably works for certain registrations and jurisdictions; I am not familiar with such arrangements. The airline we are discussing has aircraft with fixed regulated MTOWs.


Regulated MTOW is the maximum mass the performance charts or performance application generate for the runway and environmental conditions. It maybe a mass higher or lower than the certified MTOW.

When an aircraft is registered with the regulator, it is registered with the highest certified MTOW for the airframe. The operator however can still have the same airframe certified to different certified MTOWs (different W/V) below the highest value. This may reduce the MTOW and increase the MLW/MZFW allowing more payload over shorter ranges, as well as lower navigation, and landing charges.

CAAS does permit multiple MTOWs in the same tail, we operate our A350s into SIN on a lower regional MTOWs. We paid for 3 different W/V on the A350.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
akoma
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:51 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Wed May 29, 2019 1:21 am

zeke wrote:
akoma wrote:
This probably works for certain registrations and jurisdictions; I am not familiar with such arrangements. The airline we are discussing has aircraft with fixed regulated MTOWs.


Regulated MTOW is the maximum mass the performance charts or performance application generate for the runway and environmental conditions. It maybe a mass higher or lower than the certified MTOW.

When an aircraft is registered with the regulator, it is registered with the highest certified MTOW for the airframe. The operator however can still have the same airframe certified to different certified MTOWs (different W/V) below the highest value. This may reduce the MTOW and increase the MLW/MZFW allowing more payload over shorter ranges, as well as lower navigation, and landing charges.

CAAS does permit multiple MTOWs in the same tail, we operate our A350s into SIN on a lower regional MTOWs. We paid for 3 different W/V on the A350.


Thank you for the explanation. I am aware of the different W/Vs that are available for various aircraft models.

The difficulty I have understanding is the implementation of different MTOWs on the same tail. As an example, a particular aircraft might fly HKG SIN under a particular MTOW. Then, on the return flight SIN HKG the same tail flies back with a different MTOW. I see issues with the regulatory bodies and insurance companies, for example, since the same tail will need to carry different certificates for its various MTOWs. Where I am from the aircraft have fixed MTOWs and there are at least four different W/Vs and only one figure is shown in the documentation.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19343
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Wed May 29, 2019 1:38 am

akoma wrote:
zeke wrote:
akoma wrote:
This probably works for certain registrations and jurisdictions; I am not familiar with such arrangements. The airline we are discussing has aircraft with fixed regulated MTOWs.


Regulated MTOW is the maximum mass the performance charts or performance application generate for the runway and environmental conditions. It maybe a mass higher or lower than the certified MTOW.

When an aircraft is registered with the regulator, it is registered with the highest certified MTOW for the airframe. The operator however can still have the same airframe certified to different certified MTOWs (different W/V) below the highest value. This may reduce the MTOW and increase the MLW/MZFW allowing more payload over shorter ranges, as well as lower navigation, and landing charges.

CAAS does permit multiple MTOWs in the same tail, we operate our A350s into SIN on a lower regional MTOWs. We paid for 3 different W/V on the A350.


Thank you for the explanation. I am aware of the different W/Vs that are available for various aircraft models.

The difficulty I have understanding is the implementation of different MTOWs on the same tail. As an example, a particular aircraft might fly HKG SIN under a particular MTOW. Then, on the return flight SIN HKG the same tail flies back with a different MTOW. I see issues with the regulatory bodies and insurance companies, for example, since the same tail will need to carry different certificates for its various MTOWs. Where I am from the aircraft have fixed MTOWs and there are at least four different W/Vs and only one figure is shown in the documentation.


AFAIK we only have one certificate per tail. The limitations section in the FCOM lists all the weight variants the operator has purchased with a note that "multiple weight variants are certified". If memory serves the cockpit weight placard shows the highest MTOW.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Wed May 29, 2019 2:02 am

akoma wrote:
The difficulty I have understanding is the implementation of different MTOWs on the same tail. As an example, a particular aircraft might fly HKG SIN under a particular MTOW. Then, on the return flight SIN HKG the same tail flies back with a different MTOW. I see issues with the regulatory bodies and insurance companies, for example, since the same tail will need to carry different certificates for its various MTOWs. Where I am from the aircraft have fixed MTOWs and there are at least four different W/Vs and only one figure is shown in the documentation.


I am not sure what documentation you are referring to. W/V should be listed in the AFM and limitations section of FCOM. They multiple W/V will only appear if the airline pays for them.

If SQ had purchased mod 108594 they would receive the paperwork for W/V 008, MTOW 240 tonnes, MLW 207 tonnes, MZFW 195.7 tonnes. No changes to the aircraft at all.

If the aircraft is loaded with maximum structural payload to MZFW of 195.7 tonnes, all that can be added between 195.7 tonnes and 240 tonnes is fuel, that would be 7-8 hours of endurance.

The flight time SIN-HKG is only around 3 hrs, so even if you were to takeoff at 240 tonnes you would still be above the maximum landing weight of 207 tonnes. In reality the maximum weight you would see SIN-HKG-SIN would be around 225 tonnes. That would be about 5 hrs, and limited by maximum landing weight.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
akoma
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:51 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Wed May 29, 2019 4:21 am

zeke wrote:
akoma wrote:
The difficulty I have understanding is the implementation of different MTOWs on the same tail. As an example, a particular aircraft might fly HKG SIN under a particular MTOW. Then, on the return flight SIN HKG the same tail flies back with a different MTOW. I see issues with the regulatory bodies and insurance companies, for example, since the same tail will need to carry different certificates for its various MTOWs. Where I am from the aircraft have fixed MTOWs and there are at least four different W/Vs and only one figure is shown in the documentation.


I am not sure what documentation you are referring to. W/V should be listed in the AFM and limitations section of FCOM. They multiple W/V will only appear if the airline pays for them.

If SQ had purchased mod 108594 they would receive the paperwork for W/V 008, MTOW 240 tonnes, MLW 207 tonnes, MZFW 195.7 tonnes. No changes to the aircraft at all.

If the aircraft is loaded with maximum structural payload to MZFW of 195.7 tonnes, all that can be added between 195.7 tonnes and 240 tonnes is fuel, that would be 7-8 hours of endurance.

The flight time SIN-HKG is only around 3 hrs, so even if you were to takeoff at 240 tonnes you would still be above the maximum landing weight of 207 tonnes. In reality the maximum weight you would see SIN-HKG-SIN would be around 225 tonnes. That would be about 5 hrs, and limited by maximum landing weight.



Thank you for taking time to explain the W/V and how airlines have to pay for them; the flight time endurance, maximum landing weight, etc. I am aware of these things, but the info you wrote will be good for some of our newer readers here.

The thing that I find difficult to understand is the "variable MTOW" on the same tail which was mentioned by a couple of posters above. How is that implemented on the SAME tail on different flights? We are not talking about different MTOWs on the different W/V subfleets, but on the same tail. This is something which I would like to learn more about.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13903
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: SQ A359 MTOWs.

Wed May 29, 2019 5:04 am

akoma wrote:
The thing that I find difficult to understand is the "variable MTOW" on the same tail which was mentioned by a couple of posters above. How is that implemented on the SAME tail on different flights? We are not talking about different MTOWs on the different W/V subfleets, but on the same tail. This is something which I would like to learn more about.


As you have noted, I have given you information on what it is, but not the "how". How these approvals are obtained are implemented in day to day operation are commercially sensitive information which I am not permitted to share.

I trust you understand;
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Erau82 and 21 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos