A3bilbaNEO
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Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:24 pm

I recall seeing a video at boeing field, showing brand new aircraft delivery departures, which included a Fedex 763. I know 767s have two optional cockpit layouts: one which replaces the pfd and hsi screens with lcd ones and the other one consisting of three large displays (the kc-46 uses this one). But i think that for passenger and freighter 767 these are done by third parties, like their winglets. Does boeing still build, like the CRJ, crt cockpits for these aircraft?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:31 pm

UPS and FedEx both have modern LCD display flight decks. I believe the older UPS 767s and 757s were also upgraded with the modern LCD flight deck so they will match the newly delivered 767s. FedEx also upgraded the 757s when they converted them to freighters, but not using the 3 large displays.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:03 pm

There was a thread on here recently about some of this.

The new UPS ones will have the Rockwell Collins Large Format Display System. Only recently has Boeing offered that for installation in the factory as part of production as only recently did it get approval to do so. Before that, it was installing them on an STC. Before that, it produced an aircraft to plan, then a vendor followed the process to convert to the LFDS.

UPS, of course, has 767s from the late '90s plus a new batch starting about 9 years ago. All of these, and all of UPS's 757s, are going to standardize on the Collins LFDS. The work to install the LFDS began within the last few months.

Airborne Maintenance and Engineering Services (AMES) is doing the installations at ILN on the 767s, one at a time. A crew brings a plane with CRTs, the crew tests the plane that has had the LFDS installed, and the crew then takes the completed plane home. Each plane takes a few days. The 757s are being done at Cascade Aerospace in Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada.

AMES has a lot of experience with this, because they were the principal installation contractor for the IS&S FPDS. A number of airlines around the world have installed that system. Most of the 757 and 767 aircraft operated by Airborne/DHL in the US had that IS&S flat panel solution installed years ago by AMES, and most of the cargo conversions being done for Amazon and others by Cargo Aircraft Management (a subsidiary of ATSG, also the parent of the cargo airlines ATI, ABX Air and Omni Air International) are retrofitted with the IS&S product.

The Collins system is more robust, and significantly-more-expensive, than the IS&S solution.

Hope this helps.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:40 pm

This was decided 20 years ago. I have it on good authority, I heard straight from the mouth of a senior VP of flight operations at a major airline, that Boeing refused (for any price) to put the 767-400 cockpit into new build 757s and 767-300s in the late 90s/early 2000s. And people wonder why the 757 isn't produced any more, and why the 767 languishes at low production rates.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:49 pm

SteelChair wrote:
This was decided 20 years ago. I have it on good authority, I heard straight from the mouth of a senior VP of flight operations at a major airline, that Boeing refused (for any price) to put the 767-400 cockpit into new build 757s and 767-300s in the late 90s/early 2000s. And people wonder why the 757 isn't produced any more, and why the 767 languishes at low production rates.


The 744 cockpit never changed throughout its production, nor has the A320 since 1987.

Could this be a symptom of the 1988 Innovation Peak?
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:11 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
This was decided 20 years ago. I have it on good authority, I heard straight from the mouth of a senior VP of flight operations at a major airline, that Boeing refused (for any price) to put the 767-400 cockpit into new build 757s and 767-300s in the late 90s/early 2000s. And people wonder why the 757 isn't produced any more, and why the 767 languishes at low production rates.


The 744 cockpit never changed throughout its production, nor has the A320 since 1987.

Could this be a symptom of the 1988 Innovation Peak?

You gotta move on from the 80s.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:09 pm

SteelChair wrote:
This was decided 20 years ago. I have it on good authority, I heard straight from the mouth of a senior VP of flight operations at a major airline, that Boeing refused (for any price) to put the 767-400 cockpit into new build 757s and 767-300s in the late 90s/early 2000s. And people wonder why the 757 isn't produced any more, and why the 767 languishes at low production rates.


This is not correct at all. Boeing announced in the early 2000s. That they would put the 767-400 Flight Deck in the 767-300 and 757. There were no takers. No airline wanted it.

In fact, AA said they would only consider buying 767-400s if Boeing was willing to put the older Flight Deck in it for commonality.

It’s not correct to suggest that the 757 and 767 failed to sell well because Boeing didn’t do the -400 Flight Deck. The 757 isn’t produced because no-one would buy it. The 767 had been mostly replaced by the 787.

Both are awesome airplanes, but they were designed over 37 years ago. People really have to move on.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:28 pm

Well I agree that the 757 died because orders died. But perhaps they dried up because Boeing wouldnt update it at the right time for the right price?

But what i asserted, I actually heard with my own ears from a very, very senior manager of a major airline management team. The part I've always remembered was the intonation in his voice when he said, "for any price." He was clearly disgusted with Boeing.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:32 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
This was decided 20 years ago. I have it on good authority, I heard straight from the mouth of a senior VP of flight operations at a major airline, that Boeing refused (for any price) to put the 767-400 cockpit into new build 757s and 767-300s in the late 90s/early 2000s. And people wonder why the 757 isn't produced any more, and why the 767 languishes at low production rates.


This is not correct at all. Boeing announced in the early 2000s. That they would put the 767-400 Flight Deck in the 767-300 and 757. There were no takers. No airline wanted it.

In fact, AA said they would only consider buying 767-400s if Boeing was willing to put the older Flight Deck in it for commonality.

It’s not correct to suggest that the 757 and 767 failed to sell well because Boeing didn’t do the -400 Flight Deck. The 757 isn’t produced because no-one would buy it. The 767 had been mostly replaced by the 787.

Both are awesome airplanes, but they were designed over 37 years ago. People really have to move on.


Then why do the 737 and A320 remain so popular if they were designed several decades ago? :confused:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:36 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Well I agree that the 757 died because orders died. But perhaps they dried up because Boeing wouldnt update it at the right time for the right price?

But what i asserted, I actually heard with my own ears from a very, very senior manager of a major airline management team. The part I've always remembered was the intonation in his voice when he said, "for any price." He was clearly disgusted with Boeing.


Boeing publicly announced they were going to put in the Flight Deck Upgrade on the 757/767. It was presented to some customers (not that I was involved with that, of course ;)). Never materialized in any orders. I’m not sure if your friend is correct.

Of course Boeing also announced the 717-300 too. That never happened either.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:24 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Well I agree that the 757 died because orders died. But perhaps they dried up because Boeing wouldnt update it at the right time for the right price?

But what i asserted, I actually heard with my own ears from a very, very senior manager of a major airline management team. The part I've always remembered was the intonation in his voice when he said, "for any price." He was clearly disgusted with Boeing.


Boeing publicly announced they were going to put in the Flight Deck Upgrade on the 757/767. It was presented to some customers (not that I was involved with that, of course ;)). Never materialized in any orders. I’m not sure if your friend is correct.

Of course Boeing also announced the 717-300 too. That never happened either.


It wasnt my friend. It was my bosses bosses boss.

I wonder if the difference in our recollection is timing? My conversation happened around 1998. If yours was early 2000s (after 9/11/2001), all bets are off....it was a VERY different industry then....and perhaps airlines didn't have the $$.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:32 am

And also, just to be clear, I'm not talking about upgrades to in service airplanes, I'm talking new off the production line.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:19 am

Some time ago, LCD screens were certified to replace all the CRT screens. Today, I doubt there's a single 744 that has the original CRT screens installed. LCD screens are far superior to the old CRT screens. They don't burn-in or burn out, they have better resolution, better contrast, and they're lighter (they also use less power, but that's not really important in an airplane since the difference in fuel burn is probably on the order of a couple of hundred grams).
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Max Q
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:27 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Well I agree that the 757 died because orders died. But perhaps they dried up because Boeing wouldnt update it at the right time for the right price?

But what i asserted, I actually heard with my own ears from a very, very senior manager of a major airline management team. The part I've always remembered was the intonation in his voice when he said, "for any price." He was clearly disgusted with Boeing.


Boeing publicly announced they were going to put in the Flight Deck Upgrade on the 757/767. It was presented to some customers (not that I was involved with that, of course ;)). Never materialized in any orders. I’m not sure if your friend is correct.

Of course Boeing also announced the 717-300 too. That never happened either.




Pretty sure I saw a picture of a 757 that was actually used to test the 764 cockpit
set up and displays


It looked outstanding, the 764 cockpit is
very similar to the 744 except there’s two
instead of four of everything
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:58 am

Max Q wrote:

Pretty sure I saw a picture of a 757 that was actually used to test the 764 cockpit
set up and displays.


Since the Boeing Company 757 was seconded to military at that time, i would guess it was a simulator and not a real airplane.
 
Max Q
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:54 am

7BOEING7 wrote:
Max Q wrote:

Pretty sure I saw a picture of a 757 that was actually used to test the 764 cockpit
set up and displays.


Since the Boeing Company 757 was seconded to military at that time, i would guess it was a simulator and not a real airplane.




Not sure what time you’re referring to, the aircraft in question that was used to test
that configuration may have been the original Boeing owned airframe or a customer who leased it to them for this testing prior to delivery


This is a common practice, I am sure this testing was done in a real 757 and not a simulator though
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
stratosphere
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:32 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
UPS and FedEx both have modern LCD display flight decks. I believe the older UPS 767s and 757s were also upgraded with the modern LCD flight deck so they will match the newly delivered 767s. FedEx also upgraded the 757s when they converted them to freighters, but not using the 3 large displays.


Yes the FedEx 757's are the [email protected] displays and the 767's are Rockwell Collins.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:42 am

Not sure where I read it or saw it mentioned that UPS was upgrading or at least considering some sort of cockpit mod for the A300?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:20 pm

Boeing approached a Boeing Filed corpoarte 757 operator around 2006 and asked if they could do a short term lease on one of his aircraft. The owner declined. I seem to recall that it was to be used for some flight deck avaionic upgrades. One of the open issues was how we would get recurrent training done with a stand alone modified aircraft. FWIW, back in that time fram a Symbol Generator could go for 120K should you need a replacement.
 
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747classic
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:37 pm

A3bilbaNEO wrote:
I recall seeing a video at boeing field, showing brand new aircraft delivery departures, which included a Fedex 763. I know 767s have two optional cockpit layouts: one which replaces the pfd and hsi screens with lcd ones and the other one consisting of three large displays (the kc-46 uses this one). But i think that for passenger and freighter 767 these are done by third parties, like their winglets. Does boeing still build, like the CRJ, crt cockpits for these aircraft?


To answer your questions :

- All new 767-300F aircraft to be delivered (UPS and FEDEX) will be delivered with the Rockwell Collins-2100 LDS ( Large Display System), consisting of 3 large displays.
- All new 767-2C (KC-46A) aircraft will be dlivered with a "787 style" flightdeck, consisting of 4 large displays.
- For all new built 767-300F aircraft the FAA certified a new subtype : 767-300F Major Design Change – Large Format Display System,
See Type Certificate Boeing 767 at page 8/27 : http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_guida ... Rev_37.pdf

- In facto this flightdeck has become the standard for the 767-300F, if a customer wants an "old" CRT flightdeck, it may be possible ( no slots available in the first few years), but you have to pay for that option (and source your own secondhand LRU's ! ) - it will not be cheap !!!!!

All CRT equipped 767-300F and 767-200 aircraft can be modified by third parties to the Rockwell Collins Large Format Display System with STC number ST01750WI
See : http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... 1750WI.pdf
If you want to modify a 767-300 you have to apply for an adapted STC, because these aircraft are not included yet.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:24 pm

747classic wrote:
A3bilbaNEO wrote:
I recall seeing a video at boeing field, showing brand new aircraft delivery departures, which included a Fedex 763. I know 767s have two optional cockpit layouts: one which replaces the pfd and hsi screens with lcd ones and the other one consisting of three large displays (the kc-46 uses this one). But i think that for passenger and freighter 767 these are done by third parties, like their winglets. Does boeing still build, like the CRJ, crt cockpits for these aircraft?


To answer your questions :

- All new 767-300F aircraft to be delivered (UPS and FEDEX) will be delivered with the Rockwell Collins-2100 LDS ( Large Display System), consisting of 3 large displays.
- All new 767-2C (KC-46A) aircraft will be dlivered with a "787 style" flightdeck, consisting of 4 large displays.
- For all new built 767-300F aircraft the FAA certified a new subtype : 767-300F Major Design Change – Large Format Display System,
See Type Certificate Boeing 767 at page 8/27 : http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_guida ... Rev_37.pdf

- In facto this flightdeck has become the standard for the 767-300F, if a customer wants an "old" CRT flightdeck, it may be possible ( no slots available in the first few years), but you have to pay for that option (and source your own secondhand LRU's ! ) - it will not be cheap !!!!!

All CRT equipped 767-300F and 767-200 aircraft can be modified by third parties to the Rockwell Collins Large Format Display System with STC number ST01750WI
See : http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... 1750WI.pdf
If you want to modify a 767-300 you have to apply for an adapted STC, because these aircraft are not included yet.


You couldn’t get a CRT 767 anymore. The flight deck components are no longer available in production. The 767-400 flight deck is long unavailable too.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:05 am

DocLightning wrote:
Some time ago, LCD screens were certified to replace all the CRT screens. Today, I doubt there's a single 744 that has the original CRT screens installed. LCD screens are far superior to the old CRT screens. They don't burn-in or burn out, they have better resolution, better contrast, and they're lighter (they also use less power, but that's not really important in an airplane since the difference in fuel burn is probably on the order of a couple of hundred grams).

All of Lufthansas 744s, and BAs 744s have CRT screens. I have visited three LH cockpits, and BA pilot Twitter photos show CRT screens
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:37 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
All of Lufthansas 744s, and BAs 744s have CRT screens. I have visited three LH cockpits, and BA pilot Twitter photos show CRT screens


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j86K7CQBXAk <-- not that one (the little green screens on the pedestal are CRT but not the PFDs)

For LH, you may be right...but why would they choose a heavier and more maintenance-intensive product? And who is still making them?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
speedbird52
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Re: Are 767s still built with CRT cockpits?

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:36 pm

DocLightning wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
All of Lufthansas 744s, and BAs 744s have CRT screens. I have visited three LH cockpits, and BA pilot Twitter photos show CRT screens


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j86K7CQBXAk <-- not that one (the little green screens on the pedestal are CRT but not the PFDs)

For LH, you may be right...but why would they choose a heavier and more maintenance-intensive product? And who is still making them?

BA Never flew 744s to Santiago. Furthermore, this 744 has GE engines whilst BA have RR. Additionally, BA 744 cockpits have a PVC slot on the left and right corner pieces that are missing from this cockpit. Finally, this ones reg begins with "PH". I suspect it only turned up in your search results because the uploader threw as many tags as possible in the description. Good question as to why operators keep them around though: I guess it is because they have a large surplus?

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