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LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:11 am
by sonicruiser
I am aware that LAX regularly does an arrival flow from the ocean during night hours to reduce noise but this is the first time I have seen them simultaneously land arrivals from the ocean on the north runway while sending departures out over the ocean from the south runways simultaneously. Is this normal? I have never seen any other airport allow departures in such proximity to an active arrival flow especially in the opposite direction, what is the deal with LAX?

Picture of what I mean below:

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Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:53 am
by spudsmac
Yes it's normal. Keeps the noise down on both landing and takeoff.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:22 pm
by sketch
I don't see any reason why not if winds are calm.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:58 pm
by Woodreau
Aspen does it as well. Lands 15 and departs 33 simultaneously.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:25 pm
by tjwgrr
spudsmac wrote:
Yes it's normal. Keeps the noise down on both landing and takeoff.


Makes sense. Both examples the OP used were arriving / departing well after midnight.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:43 pm
by aeropix
Also done nightly at Sydney, Australia

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:39 am
by Crackshot
And in Brisbane, with 01R used for departures and 19L for arrivals during night ops.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:52 am
by aaway
It's SOP with LAX during noise abatement hours. However, it's done only during VMC. A heading of 210 once airborne provides the physical separation. One interesting aspect of this operation is the decision height for approaches in this operational mode are much higher than standard DAs/DHs for westerly or easterly operations.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:12 am
by ChrisKen
Woodreau wrote:
Aspen does it as well. Lands 15 and departs 33 simultaneously.

They may well land certain aircraft on 15 and depart them on 33 but they sure as hell don't do it simultaneously.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:25 am
by Woodreau
Due to the nature of the terrain and the airport, for normal operations at ASE, the landings on 15 and departures on 33 are done simultaneously.

Approach will have aircraft lined up for landing on 15 with spacing to allow for departures off 33. Tower will have aircraft lined up to allow a takeoff from 33 after a landing on 15. And ground has aircraft lined up on the taxiway for departure sequenced to allow landing traffic to clear the runway through the taxiing aircraft.

Landing aircraft are advised there will be an opposite direction takeoff and they cleared to land 15. The departing aircraft is advised that there is an opposite direction aircraft on final and to call the landing traffic in sight. After the departing aircraft calls the traffic in sight, they are cleared for takeoff from 33. A turn to a 340 heading is done after takeoff to avoid the landing traffic, followed by a turn to 270 under the extended centerline to avoid flight into terrain.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:28 pm
by ChrisKen
Woodreau wrote:
Due to the nature of the terrain and the airport, for normal operations at ASE, the landings on 15 and departures on 33 are done simultaneously.

Approach will have aircraft lined up for landing on 15 with spacing to allow for departures off 33. Tower will have aircraft lined up to allow a takeoff from 33 after a landing on 15. And ground has aircraft lined up on the taxiway for departure sequenced to allow landing traffic to clear the runway through the taxiing aircraft.

Landing aircraft are advised there will be an opposite direction takeoff and they cleared to land 15. The departing aircraft is advised that there is an opposite direction aircraft on final and to call the landing traffic in sight. After the departing aircraft calls the traffic in sight, they are cleared for takeoff from 33. A turn to a 340 heading is done after takeoff to avoid the landing traffic, followed by a turn to 270 under the extended centerline to avoid flight into terrain.



Like I said, not simultaneous ops. Simultaneous operations allow landings & departures to occur simultaneously, usually on parallel runways, but applies on other multiple runway configs too. On a single runway, working single ended opposing ops, such operations equal a crash. Think about it.
You're describing something else entirely. Namely separated, single end operations in VMC.

As an aside, if the ops happen as you've described, remind me never to fly to Aspen, that's an accident waiting to happen. No controller worth their salt will issue a landing clearance and a take off clearance to aircraft operating on the same piece of ground in opposing directions. But then again, this is the USA, where "XYZ cleared to land rwy x, number 12' is often heard.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:16 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
You might not like it, but KASE has been doing it for years in various iterations. Only way to handle the traffic.

The departing and landing traffic are separated by time and distance like any other runway just in opposite directions

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:28 am
by UPlog
Absolutely safe procedure and been utilized for decades (atleast as long as I've been flying to SoCal).

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:29 pm
by Eugenewats
What is the UAL 600T call sign about?

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:12 pm
by Starlionblue
Eugenewats wrote:
What is the UAL 600T call sign about?


Might be a ferry flight, or a second flight "600" on the same day, or a number of other things.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:27 am
by atcdan
This procedure is one of three configurations for the airport. West flow which is almost every day, East flow dictated by strong easterly winds, and over-ocean flow done for noise abatement between 0000L and 0630L each day.

Over-ocean may be suspended due to runway closures overnight, low cloud ceilings, or strong winds. The tower controllers tell the pilots about the opposing aircraft, and then provide visual separation until radar separation is established.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:30 pm
by N1120A
This is a very common procedure. As long as they don't have a 10 knot tail wind in one direction or the other, they stick to it for noise abatement. Same as how they keep ops going West during the day, unless winds pick up to force the issue, which also helps due to airspace design. Since traffic isn't nearly as busy at night, they can get away with essentially using one side for arrivals and one side for departures as well, a good distance to separate traffic.

KASE is different. That is due to terrain.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:41 pm
by Cubsrule
N1120A wrote:
KASE is different. That is due to terrain.


Correct. KSAN is sort of similar to KASE. They run opposite direction operations when they need the precision approach to 9 due to low visibility (most commonly on winter mornings). It’s sort of a terrain issue insofar as the terrain makes 27 takeoffs much easier.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:03 am
by 777Jet
aeropix wrote:
Also done nightly at Sydney, Australia


And during the day at times.

Re: LAX simultaneous opposing direction runway ops

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:45 am
by N1120A
Cubsrule wrote:
N1120A wrote:
KASE is different. That is due to terrain.


Correct. KSAN is sort of similar to KASE. They run opposite direction operations when they need the precision approach to 9 due to low visibility (most commonly on winter mornings). It’s sort of a terrain issue insofar as the terrain makes 27 takeoffs much easier.


Terrain off 27 at KSAN is much different than what is faced at KASE. The bigger issue is that the prevailing winds at KSAN are from the west.