crjflyboy
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19 seat airliner question

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:24 pm

After having requested a determination from the FAA nearly 4 months ago, I have to receive a definitive answer from them.

I'm hoping someone in this forum can give a credible response.

Scenario … 19 seat aircraft has a stand up cabin, lav, overhead bins on one side. Aircraft manufacture has the capability to install slimline seats freeing up extra space in the cabin to install a narrow drink type galley and storage area for small snacks. They also have the ability to add a jump seat for a FA.

Aircraft is currently certified by the FAA for 2 in the cockpit and 19 total " paying " passengers.

If an airline wanted to have a FA working these flights, would the airline still be allowed to carry the 19 paying passengers as well as the flight attendant ?

I understand one is not needed for any aircraft of 19 seats or less.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:54 pm

F/A could be considered crew and that’d be legal, but who’d do that? Flight attendants on bizjets are crew.

GF
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:14 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
F/A could be considered crew and that’d be legal, but who’d do that? Flight attendants on bizjets are crew.

GF


I assumed what you are stating with bizjets, but this would be a full 135 commercial operation carrying for the most part O/D traffic on nonstop routes abandoned by the majors and feeders after all the hub downsizing and consolidation.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:35 pm

No, it’s the same thing, crew is crew. There’s no requirement for a F/A, one can be designated. I doubt any carrier would put a F/A on nineteen seater, but under your conditions I think it would possible. I think Jet Suite has a flight attendant on their ERJ-135

GF
 
jacrowley48
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:50 pm

I believe Wings West at one time had a F/A on their Metroliner service. Sat in a passenger seat and stored a small cooler in the small carryon compartment.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, it’s the same thing, crew is crew. There’s no requirement for a F/A, one can be designated. I doubt any carrier would put a F/A on nineteen seater, but under your conditions I think it would possible. I think Jet Suite has a flight attendant on their ERJ-135

GF



California based Golden West operated several German made Hansa jets in the late 60's on their route structure. The aircraft did have 2 in the cockpit and sat 10 paying passengers in the cabin … they had a flight attendant aboard the aircraft … they must have been tiny in size.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/27928214787

Of course rules and regs were drastically different back then.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:34 pm

jacrowley48 wrote:
I believe Wings West at one time had a F/A on their Metroliner service. Sat in a passenger seat and stored a small cooler in the small carryon compartment.


That must have been a brutal job.
 
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JBo
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:06 am

There's nothing that would legally prevent an airline from having an F/A as part of the crew on a 19-pax aircraft, but whether or not it would make financial sense is an entirely different story:

- Would these 19pax aircraft be flying distances long enough to warrant on-board meal/drink service?
- Would it be worth the additional operational expense to have an F/A on board?
- Would these flights be profitable as far as ticket cost per passenger covering operational costs with three crew members?

I can't think of any scenario where an F/A on a 19-seat aircraft would make financial or logistical sense for any reason other than the "luxury" of it.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:54 pm

jacrowley48 wrote:
I believe Wings West at one time had a F/A on their Metroliner service. Sat in a passenger seat and stored a small cooler in the small carryon compartment.

I would think one requirement for hire would be no taller than say 4' 6".

I think the F/A would go against the total count of people on board. So in the 19 pax 2 crew you would have to give up a pax to add a F/A. It has to do with the cert for the aircraft.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:58 pm

IDK, I’ve see a Citation V carry a F/A who was about 5’9” in heels.

The certification question is a good one. The large bizjets are often cert’d for 19 pax, 22 occupants.

GF
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:19 pm

So I'm reading yes it's permitted and no it's not permitted … just wish I could get that definitive ruling from the FAA
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:08 pm

Depends on the specific type—give us a type we have a better answer. On a Beech 1900D, maximum seating, including crew, is 21; so 19 pax plus 2 crew.


GF
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:30 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Depends on the specific type—give us a type we have a better answer. On a Beech 1900D, maximum seating, including crew, is 21; so 19 pax plus 2 crew.


GF


The HARBIN Y-12F

In this rendition from their Middle East representative, it show 19 seats in the cabin and then a blue seat in the rear. That blue seat is where I would want the small drink and snack galley to be and the FA jump seat to be up against the rear bulkhead near the lav. Apologize for the Russian language but the tech specifics are in English if you scroll towards the bottom.

http://flavic.aero/upload/iblock/e78/Y-12F%20ENG.pdf

Example of where this would be used … CVG - MKE … CVG - PIT … CVG - MEM
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:42 pm

FAA TCDS says 19 seats plus 2 crew, so a F/A comes out of the passenger seats unless an approved interior STC is engineered with a cabin F/A seat.

Because there haven’t been a regulatory F/A on 19 seat planes, I doubt you’ll find an type fitted for a cabin attendant. It’s not required, why would you? Don’t even get started on operating a Chinese plane in the US—support and training alone would be showstoppers
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:59 pm

So the decision rests with HARBIN to initiate an STC on the specifications I'm looking for ?

To get their foot in the door of the USA … they will ...

What if they had a dance partner in the USA … say PIPER … with SIMS in the USA

The target market is biz travel, not G4, F9 or NK type fares.

My sister was a part time FA on an ALLEGHENY CASA 212 years ago, she was paid 8 bucks an hour but could travel anywhere on the ALLGHENY/ US AIR system at near no cost. Sell 4 alcohol beverages and her hourly wage approached equalizing itself out.

https://www.airteamimages.com/casa-c-21 ... large.html

She was with them for 3 years and traveled the planet.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:31 pm

Decision lies with a customer requesting the STC, be willing to pay for it and then Harbin designs and gets it approved.

I’d bet a shuttle version of the CRJ-200 would be easier, cheaper and more acceptable being a jet.

Gf
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:42 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Decision lies with a customer requesting the STC, be willing to pay for it and then Harbin designs and gets it approved.

I’d bet a shuttle version of the CRJ-200 would be easier, cheaper and more acceptable being a jet.

Gf


Can you lease a 200 for 5k a month for the first 2 years ?

CHINA will do anything to get their foot into the USA market and if that requires them pumping millions into PIPER to achieve that goal ... they will
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:15 pm

China and Piper already have a grip with each other.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... aking-deal

The Y12F partnership would allow them to leapfrog CESSNA and their hinky SKYCOURIER with virtually nothing to the negative side
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:41 pm

I predict the sky will not darkened by Harbin Y12F. I don’t you got 5,000 per month lease, but that says it all.
 
unimproved
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:28 am

I don't know if the photo's are representative of the end product, but I've seen home built simulator cockpits with higher build quality.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:00 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I predict the sky will not darkened by Harbin Y12F. I don’t you got 5,000 per month lease, but that says it all.


Complete incomprehensible gibberish response ... you have said yes it's legal..... then say no .. then say possible. ...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:04 pm

What? I said it’s possible a 19-seater could have a F/A but depends on the certification whether the F/A would be included in the 19 seats. I also showed where the Beech 1900D could only carry a F/A by reducing the passenger total to 18 which also applies to the Harbin. Finally, I am predicting the Harbin Y12 isn’t going to takeover any flying in the US regardless of the F/A issue simply because it’s sales and support are meager compared to anything in the US.

You wanted a definitive answer. The FAA TCDS I referenced is crystal clear.

No gibberish in any of it. You ask experts, get their informed, referenced answer, and then claim they’re wrong. Wonderful.
 
rlwynn
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:15 pm

It is 17+2 plane. This thread is almost up there with the snowglobe thread.
I can drive faster than you
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:21 pm

Despite many opinions in error, the answer to 95% of aviation questions is, “it depends”.

I reread the TCDS, you’re correct, 17+2. I took the 19 seats to be the passengers not including the crew, but I’m not certain.
 
Soupupnorth
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:19 pm

The harbin Y-12 is a interesting plane. My former boss was supposed to be the launch customer here in the USA. He traveled to China to see the plane where it’s manufactured and it is incredible. It’s a town built around a factory that produces many different products including tractors. A demo model made its way over to North America 3 years or so ago. He flew it down from Canada to KFXE with harbin’s test pilot and engineers and I got to climb all over that thing when it arrived. All the components of the plane are western world products such as Pratt & Whitney engines Cleveland brakes, Garmin avionics etc. the plane looked great but it does have some craftsmanship issues. The cargo door is heavy and likes to sag. Inspection openings were covered by speed tape as covers went missing. Besides that the interior was quite large inside considering. To me the plane looks like it might have taken design cues from the twin otter and a Let.
 
113312
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:13 pm

The Approved Flight Manual and certification stipulate the minimum crew (flight crew). The number of passenger seats determines if and how many flight attendants are required. 18 or fewer passenger seats does not require a flight attendant. It does not matter how large the plane is. We used to have 18 passenger seats on the upper deck of B747-200F and no flight attendant. 19-50 passenger seats would require at least one flight attendant.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:50 pm

Soupupnorth wrote:
The harbin Y-12 is a interesting plane. My former boss was supposed to be the launch customer here in the USA. He traveled to China to see the plane where it’s manufactured and it is incredible. It’s a town built around a factory that produces many different products including tractors. A demo model made its way over to North America 3 years or so ago. He flew it down from Canada to KFXE with harbin’s test pilot and engineers and I got to climb all over that thing when it arrived. All the components of the plane are western world products such as Pratt & Whitney engines Cleveland brakes, Garmin avionics etc. the plane looked great but it does have some craftsmanship issues. The cargo door is heavy and likes to sag. Inspection openings were covered by speed tape as covers went missing. Besides that the interior was quite large inside considering. To me the plane looks like it might have taken design cues from the twin otter and a Let.



AZTEC out of Ft. Lauderdale ? That is where I first seen the aircraft on a fluke as I was down their on vacation.

The interior size for a 19 pax aircraft is huge with a stand up cabin.

I agree the craftsmanship needs to be refined a bit, a joint PIPER effort would do it. The drop down cargo ramp door would be eliminated as it would not be needed, larger windows, slimline seats, larger over head bins.

I don't think Americans are ready to fly a pure Chinese aircraft today, but a with a joint effort with PIPER and joint PIPER branding ... they would.

Interesting fact ... back in the late 1960's PIPER tried to introduce a 18 PAX regional plane ... engines for it were woefully weak.

http://airpigz.com/blog/2010/11/5/1968- ... souls.html
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:51 pm

113312 wrote:
The Approved Flight Manual and certification stipulate the minimum crew (flight crew). The number of passenger seats determines if and how many flight attendants are required. 18 or fewer passenger seats does not require a flight attendant. It does not matter how large the plane is. We used to have 18 passenger seats on the upper deck of B747-200F and no flight attendant. 19-50 passenger seats would require at least one flight attendant.


It's 19 or fewer passenger seats in the USA
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:58 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Despite many opinions in error, the answer to 95% of aviation questions is, “it depends”.

I reread the TCDS, you’re correct, 17+2. I took the 19 seats to be the passengers not including the crew, but I’m not certain.



Scroll down … and look again … 2 in the cockpit, 19 PAX in the cabin … plus the highlighted seat.

http://flavic.aero/upload/iblock/e78/Y-12F%20ENG.pdf
 
BravoOne
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:09 pm

Use to carry a FA onboard a 19 seat DH Heron between BUR/LGB and LAS. Sorry no pics, nor do I recall where she sat? (1963)
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:59 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Use to carry a FA onboard a 19 seat DH Heron between BUR/LGB and LAS. Sorry no pics, nor do I recall where she sat? (1963)


on a flight that short … that is crazy … and the HERON cabins are not tall at all
Last edited by crjflyboy on Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BravoOne
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:20 pm

You are correct and you had to step over the wing spar as you moved forward. This was an operation dedictaed to one of the hotels in LAS, so it was not your typical commuter operation. Pre 135 days. he Hacienda Hotel ran a bunch of airliners uo to and including the 749 Constellation before the then CAB put them out of business.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:33 pm

BravoOne wrote:
You are correct and you had to step over the wing spar as you moved forward. This was an operation dedictaed to one of the hotels in LAS, so it was not your typical commuter operation. Pre 135 days. he Hacienda Hotel ran a bunch of airliners uo to and including the 749 Constellation before the then CAB put them out of business.


What a colorful history the Hacienda had …

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacienda_(resort)

I'm quite familiar with the HERON and it's sibling the DOVE

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... 393764990/
 
T prop
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:32 am

19 seats for airline ops? Won't that be part 121 today?
 
BravoOne
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:56 pm

T prop wrote:
19 seats for airline ops? Won't that be part 121 today?


Today, yes but back then no.
 
Passedv1
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Re: 19 seat airliner question

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:37 am

I don't understand twhy there is even a question. Regs only specify minimum crew.
You could have 10 pilots and 7 FA's required on a BEECH 1900l for all the FAA cared. When you say you cant get an answer from the FAA do you mean the FSDO? If you are just asking at the FSDO you are probably talking to the junior guy that doesn't know anything about anything. Just schedule your pre-submission meeting and that will more likely be with somebody that has some experience. In your ops manual you would just put that an FA would be required in your operation. and what duties they would perform. You might want to place in your manual that you dont need an FA and the FO would perform the duties of the FA if you didn't have one. The regs/FAA manuals specify a MINIMUM level of safety...you can go overboard as much as your heart desires.

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