nine4nine
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SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:03 pm

If anyone can clarify. I’ve noticed some odd takeoff procedures at SNA the past few days. I’ve noticed 1 AS E175, 1 AS 320, and 1 F9 320 depart SNA at very low climb out rates visually and on Flightradar24 (almost to Catalina Island at only FL 5600’) and all 3 of those left the landing gear down until I can no longer see them out over the pacific with my binoculars. I’ve never seen it before and now have 3 times since Sunday.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
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AirKevin
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:08 pm

Maybe they needed to cool their brakes? I don't know. I'm just guessing.
Captain Kevin
 
TruNorth
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:45 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Maybe they needed to cool their brakes? I don't know. I'm just guessing.

Hi AirKevin you are correct that can happen especially after a long taxi to runway or in extremely hot weather to cool the brakes.

TruNorth
 
StinkyPinky
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:48 pm

Doesn't seem like a very long taxi nor hotter weather than usual in Orange County. However, for max performance takeoffs, dont they hold the brakes and rev up the engines? Would that cause them to heat up at all despite a lack of friction?
 
TruNorth
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:59 pm

StinkyPinky wrote:
Doesn't seem like a very long taxi nor hotter weather than usual in Orange County. However, for max performance takeoffs, dont they hold the brakes and rev up the engines? Would that cause them to heat up at all despite a lack of friction?


They can hold the brakes during a max performance take off it can warm the brakes up a bit . My experience here with the aircraft I worked on is more common after a long taxi to keep the gear down to cool the brakes . I worked on the BAEHawk for a bit and it steered with Differential Brakes and they would heat up fast after a long taxi.
TruNorth P.s. they could also be being proactive to prevent a possible overheat
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:00 pm

Hot brakes usually stem from residual high temps from the previous landing. 5700 foot long runway, at least for an Airbus, means hot brakes on landing. You might get them cool enough to take off, (under 300 degrees C, Airbus) but it’s not uncommon for them to hit 300 or above again on the next take off roll. Aborting would give you 1000 degree brakes, blown fuses, and maybe even a nice brake fire. So you press on and leave the gear down until they cool.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:40 pm

Do people really watch these websites, then watch the take-off with binoculars?

GF
 
chrisair
Posts: 2040
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Do people really watch these websites, then watch the take-off with binoculars?

GF


You don't? :shock:
 
AA737-823
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:34 pm

TruNorth wrote:
They can hold the brakes during a max performance take off it can warm the brakes up a bit .


Um... what?
No.
Just no.
Not even remotely.
That would defy all the laws of thermodynamics.
 
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tb727
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:13 am

AA737-823 wrote:
TruNorth wrote:
They can hold the brakes during a max performance take off it can warm the brakes up a bit .


Um... what?
No.
Just no.
Not even remotely.
That would defy all the laws of thermodynamics.


In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!!
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:23 am

tb727 wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
TruNorth wrote:
They can hold the brakes during a max performance take off it can warm the brakes up a bit .

...
That would defy all the laws of thermodynamics.


In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!!


Answer of the day!

On topic: How do pilots decide to leave the gears down for a longer time? I assume there are temparature sensors near the brakes, right? Is there a prominent display which tells them better to wait until "gears up"?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:02 am

BartSimpson wrote:
tb727 wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
...
That would defy all the laws of thermodynamics.


In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!!


Answer of the day!

On topic: How do pilots decide to leave the gears down for a longer time? I assume there are temparature sensors near the brakes, right? Is there a prominent display which tells them better to wait until "gears up"?


Yes, there is a prominent display. :)

On Airbus, brake temperatures are displayed on the Wheel SD Page. Any brake temps above 300C are displayed in amber. The hottest brake has the horizontal arc filled in to highlight it.

If any brake is above 300C, the "BRAKES HOT" ECAM caution is triggered. You get a single chime, the master caution light, and the Wheel SD page is automatically displayed. If this happens in flight, you are asked to compute the L/G down performance. If performance permits, you leave the gear down for cooling.

The guys flying this A330 did some serious braking, and seem to have lost pressure in wheel #8.
Image
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
vikkyvik
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:58 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
The guys flying this A330 did some serious braking, and seem to have lost pressure in wheel #8.


Would you be one of those guys? :biggrin:

What are the white/green lines with the little white circles, and the green triangles under them?

Also, how come wheel #7 pressure is displayed in amber? Just because wheel #8 is low?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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longhauler
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:17 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
What are the white/green lines with the little white circles, and the green triangles under them?

The green/white line with the circle are the gear doors. Green indicating the actual gear door position is in agreement with the selected/commanded position. During extension/retraction they will be in amber during transition, (and will also open/close).

The triangles are the gear downlock confirmation. Two triangles per gear indicating each of two different sensing systems. They are green as they have been selected down and they are down. During extension/retraction they are red indicating that during that time they are not in agreement with the gear handle. Either of the two triangles is sufficient for gear down confirmation. Although ... it takes nerves of steel to land with one red and one green on the same gear!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:47 am

vikkyvik wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The guys flying this A330 did some serious braking, and seem to have lost pressure in wheel #8.


Would you be one of those guys? :biggrin:

What are the white/green lines with the little white circles, and the green triangles under them?

Also, how come wheel #7 pressure is displayed in amber? Just because wheel #8 is low?


Good question. The manual just says the pressure indication becomes amber when "tire low pressure is indicated"

And not, I was not one of those guys. Just found the pic on the web somewhere. :)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:37 am

Brake temp monitoring is an option on the 757/767 so it's not a given.
 
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DL717
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:38 am

Forget the brakes...Check out this mess to keep the neighbors happy...

https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/dtpp/1908 ... ddest=(SNA)
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:12 am

Noise abatement takeoff, been through this airport several times. Pilot warned us about it one time!
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
bhill
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:40 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Do people really watch these websites, then watch the take-off with binoculars?

GF



Or really long lenses...
Carpe Pices
 
bhill
Posts: 1647
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:44 pm

DL717 wrote:
Forget the brakes...Check out this mess to keep the neighbors happy...

https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/dtpp/1908 ... ddest=(SNA)



Ohhh Yeahhh.....the John Wayne WEEEEE HAAAAW Take off....!!!
Carpe Pices
 
MrBretz
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:05 am

The takeoff is much duller than the old days. You don't climb as rapidly and the thrust isn't reduced as much as days gone by. All they do now is make a slight left turn to align over the back bay. After that, they make a slight right to realign so they can continue over the back bay and go over Balboa Island out to sea. They say the engines are much quieter now. When I visit Balboa Is., I wonder if that's true.

In the old days, they climbed rapidly, reduced thrust so you felt the plane drop. It was really fun on the HP 757 to Phoenix.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:49 pm

MrBretz wrote:
The takeoff is much duller than the old days.


Yeah, on my recent flights from SNA, I haven't noticed anything that felt any different from any other airport.

With the exception that they still hold the brakes while throttling up the engines (at least on some airplanes/airlines), which is kinda fun.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
seb146
Posts: 20199
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:51 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Do people really watch these websites, then watch the take-off with binoculars?

GF


A couple of weeks ago, the brosband and I went to Southern California. We spent several hours at LAX and the In-N-Out. I was using the FlightAware app but we forgot binoculars.......
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
phllax
Posts: 495
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:10 pm

MrBretz wrote:
The takeoff is much duller than the old days. You don't climb as rapidly and the thrust isn't reduced as much as days gone by. All they do now is make a slight left turn to align over the back bay. After that, they make a slight right to realign so they can continue over the back bay and go over Balboa Island out to sea. They say the engines are much quieter now. When I visit Balboa Is., I wonder if that's true.

In the old days, they climbed rapidly, reduced thrust so you felt the plane drop. It was really fun on the HP 757 to Phoenix.


I believe the 737-800, at lease AA's 800's, is exempt from the noise abatement procedure.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2192
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Re: SNA-takeoff procedure oddity

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:37 pm

phllax wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
The takeoff is much duller than the old days. You don't climb as rapidly and the thrust isn't reduced as much as days gone by. All they do now is make a slight left turn to align over the back bay. After that, they make a slight right to realign so they can continue over the back bay and go over Balboa Island out to sea. They say the engines are much quieter now. When I visit Balboa Is., I wonder if that's true.

In the old days, they climbed rapidly, reduced thrust so you felt the plane drop. It was really fun on the HP 757 to Phoenix.


I believe the 737-800, at lease AA's 800's, is exempt from the noise abatement procedure.


That's correct. For some reason WN still does the cutback on every departure (700/800).
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