AirbusCanada
Topic Author
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:05 pm

Since the root cause of most the 737Max related problems originate from trying to fit bigger diameter engines under low wings, I was wondering would it be easier for Boeing (from a technical perspective) to base the MAX on a 757 platform instead of 737.

Shortened fuselage, both CFM & GTF Engine option, new composite wing, fly-by-wire controls, and updated avionics.

Skip the smallest (7/700) variant, offer three models with capacity ranging from 180 to 230. The larger variant should be able to compete with A321very effectively.

Would it be still faster and cheaper to develop than a clean sheet design?
 
tootallsd
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:02 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:13 pm

The existing design materials are not digital (according to my understanding) so any rework is going to be complicated.

Tooling does not exist, so you need to create the supply chain, the jigs, everything. And in terms of advanced manufacturing methods -- you have to adapt the design to use those methodologies.

Sounds like as close to a clean sheet as you can get.
 
WN732
Posts: 527
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:15 pm

Even if Boeing wanted to, there would be no way to bring any version of the 757 back. The tooling is gone. Boeing envisioned the 7E7 at the time would fill that gap and also fill up to the 764's gap. When the 787 was introduced, they were to build the 787-3 to replace the 757. This never happened and it was too late to go back to the 757 for a re-engine. The end.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 20893
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:16 pm

Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

The real question is if this would have produced a viable product, and the answer is no.

The 757 fell out of favor because it was a strongly built thus heavy airframe that had been stretched as far as it could be stretched.

Better engines would mean you burn less fuel so most of the time you fly around big, heavy and empty wing tanks.

Its supply chain has pretty much all moved on to doing other things, so you'd have to restart all of that from scratch.

So, it's a non-starter.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
stxbohn
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:44 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:18 pm

I guess the 737 was digitized at some point? Between 737 classic and 737 NG?
 
many321
Posts: 292
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:15 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:19 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
Since the root cause of most the 737Max related problems originate from trying to fit bigger diameter engines under low wings, I was wondering would it be easier for Boeing (from a technical perspective) to base the MAX on a 757 platform instead of 737.

Shortened fuselage, both CFM & GTF Engine option, new composite wing, fly-by-wire controls, and updated avionics.

Skip the smallest (7/700) variant, offer three models with capacity ranging from 180 to 230. The larger variant should be able to compete with A321very effectively.

Would it be still faster and cheaper to develop than a clean sheet design?


I've always had this question linger in my mind. Boeing should have gone in this route, perhaps saved themselves the trouble they're going through at the moment.
 
AirbusCanada
Topic Author
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:40 pm

WN732 wrote:
Even if Boeing wanted to, there would be no way to bring any version of the 757 back. The tooling is gone. Boeing envisioned the 7E7 at the time would fill that gap and also fill up to the 764's gap. When the 787 was introduced, they were to build the 787-3 to replace the 757. This never happened and it was too late to go back to the 757 for a re-engine. The end.


Isn't tooling a less of a problem than unstable aerodynamics, that needs to be dealth with an under the table software fix.
 
Zidane
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:44 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:49 pm

While I like the sound of a B757-7/-8/-9 family concept, Boeing might as well build a new clean sheet.
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 2162
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

The real question is if this would have produced a viable product, and the answer is no.

The 757 fell out of favor because it was a strongly built thus heavy airframe that had been stretched as far as it could be stretched.

Better engines would mean you burn less fuel so most of the time you fly around big, heavy and empty wing tanks.


Exactly. I still don't quite get the 757 fetish on here. The plane, over the course of its entire history, delivered an average of 3.6 planes per month.

It was good at what it did when it was new. Then lighter planes (including the 737) took over that role as they got more capable. If Boeing had kept the 757 in production for the past 14 years, it would have had its tailcone handed to it in the marketplace vs. the A320 series, and meanwhile the 737NG (which moved into the 757's production space) would have had a much smaller production run on account of lack of facilities. Ignoring the whole "tooling" discussion, a 757 MAX would still be too heavy, and so it would still be soundly defeated in the marketplace by the A320neo. Plus, it wouldn't be able to use the neo engine, because those are 10,000 pounds too weak in the thrust range, so you'd need a brand new engine in the 40,000 pound thrust category (of which there really isn't one at the moment) which would then increase the cost of development even further. So, you'd have a too-heavy airplane with a more powerful (and thirstier) engine competing against lighter and far more efficient airframe/engine combos, costing a lot more per frame. Any one of those factors is likely to hamstring you in the marketplace. All of them put together, and there's absolutely no way an airline would want it.

A hypothetical "757MAX" to compete in the A320/737-800 market makes about as much economical sense as a 737-600 or A318.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
BlueberryWheats
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:46 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:47 pm

Why though? The point was to try and keep a common type rating with the existing 737. So a 757MAX would be rather pointless, may as well do a clean sheet.

Zidane wrote:
While I like the sound of a B757-7/-8/-9 family concept, Boeing might as well build a new clean sheet.


This guy gets it.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3812
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:49 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

The real question is if this would have produced a viable product, and the answer is no.

The 757 fell out of favor because it was a strongly built thus heavy airframe that had been stretched as far as it could be stretched.

Better engines would mean you burn less fuel so most of the time you fly around big, heavy and empty wing tanks.


Exactly. I still don't quite get the 757 fetish on here. The plane, over the course of its entire history, delivered an average of 3.6 planes per month.

It was good at what it did when it was new. Then lighter planes (including the 737) took over that role as they got more capable. If Boeing had kept the 757 in production for the past 14 years, it would have had its tailcone handed to it in the marketplace vs. the A320 series, and meanwhile the 737NG (which moved into the 757's production space) would have had a much smaller production run on account of lack of facilities. Ignoring the whole "tooling" discussion, a 757 MAX would still be too heavy, and so it would still be soundly defeated in the marketplace by the A320neo. Plus, it wouldn't be able to use the neo engine, because those are 10,000 pounds too weak in the thrust range, so you'd need a brand new engine in the 40,000 pound thrust category (of which there really isn't one at the moment) which would then increase the cost of development even further. So, you'd have a too-heavy airplane with a more powerful (and thirstier) engine competing against lighter and far more efficient airframe/engine combos, costing a lot more per frame. Any one of those factors is likely to hamstring you in the marketplace. All of them put together, and there's absolutely no way an airline would want it.

A hypothetical "757MAX" to compete in the A320/737-800 market makes about as much economical sense as a 737-600 or A318.

what are you talking about? The 757 even today performs as good as the A321 which is just a cheap copy of the B757. If Boeing right today announced an updated digital 0version of the B757 the A321 sales would plummet!
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6274
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:15 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
The 757 even today performs as good as the A321 which is just a cheap copy of the B757. If Boeing right today announced an updated digital 0version of the B757 the A321 sales would plummet!


Yes a 757 performs as well as an A321. But, so does a 707 or a DC-8. Wanna resurrect those too?

Boeing stopped building the 757 because no one wanted them any more. And why would they? It was designed in the 1970s on a 1960s wing airfoil design. Engines were too powerful because that was all that was available at the time. The fuselage/wing combination is very heavy ... not to be "strong" like people think, but because that was the only technology available at the time and all that Boeing knew how to do.

Sure, the A321 is a cheap copy of the 757. That's actually quite funny. Boeing sold just over 1000 757s So far A321 orders/deliveries sits at around 4500. It looks to me like Airbus showed Boeing what the 757 should have been or could have been.

A "digital" version of the 757 won't solve the whole weight issue. With its 1970s design, the 757 is just too heavy. Bring it back and the world would laugh.

But .... redesign the wing, the fuselage, update the cockpit, find the right sized engines and you'd have a winner, In other words, start from scratch and that is exactly what Boeing is doing! I think though, they may be too late. While everyone in Seattle sits on their thumbs figuring out what to do with the 797, Airbus is cleaning up with the A321.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
mopacair
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:13 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:37 pm

A scaled-down 757 would still be inefficient as a replacement for the 737NG due to its weight and wing design. I’m sure Boeing considered the idea but found that a clean sheet design would be the end-result. Since they were in a rush to have a replacement to compete with the Neo-series, a stretch of the 737 was the easy choice. In hindsight they probably should have gone with a clean sheet design, but that’s not apparently what the analytics (or bean-counters) told them.

As a fan of the 757, I must admit that it was an excellent aircraft when it was developed but by the 2000s, it was an outdated design. What’s crazy is that despite its inefficiencies the 757 is still a very capable aircraft that really has no equal (739/321 are close but not equal). The A321XLR would seem to be the closest in comparison, but it has yet to fly and AFAIK won’t have the cargo capability of the 757. That said, market forces gave their opinion of the 757 years ago when Boeing delivered its last order for the type.
 
N649DL
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:45 pm

I'm not really understanding this whole "digital conversion" thing, what exactly does this entail? And Boeing still makes the 767, how did this get converted when the aircraft was launched in 1981?

Boeing shut down the 757 assembly line in 2005. So while very difficult to replicate a design that hasn't been manufactured in almost 15 years, I'm sure there are design components they can take from it if need be.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:09 pm

WN732 wrote:
Even if Boeing wanted to, there would be no way to bring any version of the 757 back. The tooling is gone.

If Boeing really wanted they could build the 757 again. It doesn't matter that the tooling is gone. They could easily make new tooling.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 20893
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:12 pm

N649DL wrote:
I'm not really understanding this whole "digital conversion" thing, what exactly does this entail?

757 was designed before computer aided design was rampant.

The designs for it largely live on paper or mylar and not as digital files.

It also was designed before fly-by-wire.

It has a digital cockpit to deal with many aspects of flying the airplane, but you still have cables and pulleys running to the rudder, etc.

MartijnNL wrote:
WN732 wrote:
Even if Boeing wanted to, there would be no way to bring any version of the 757 back. The tooling is gone.

If Boeing really wanted they could build the 757 again. It doesn't matter that the tooling is gone. They could easily make new tooling.

Right, and as above they could do so for 727, 707, DC8, etc but it doesn't make sense to do so.

The tooling would be all-new from the FAA's point of view so there is the added expense of getting a new production certification to deal with.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3349
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:25 pm

Revelation wrote:
Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

The real question is if this would have produced a viable product, and the answer is no.

The 757 fell out of favor because it was a strongly built thus heavy airframe that had been stretched as far as it could be stretched.

Better engines would mean you burn less fuel so most of the time you fly around big, heavy and empty wing tanks.

Its supply chain has pretty much all moved on to doing other things, so you'd have to restart all of that from scratch.

So, it's a non-starter.


Which is a wonderful answer to the question of “no much has changed in airliner design”. When EAL launched the program with BA, the premise was high oil prices as far as the eye could see and its fuel efficiency was worth the expense. It turned out in the 80s, fuel was cheap and money was expensive. I got in the jumpseat to fly an EA 757 BOS-MCI. The fuel load 27,000 which I, as 727 pilot, couldn’t believe was enough to get there. We had plenty. Captain said, “727 load plus a few with DC-9 fuel burn.” Now, it’s an overweight fuel hog.

GF
 
User avatar
September11
Posts: 3583
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:06 am

I’m still curious about 757-100
Airliners.net of the Future
 
N649DL
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:09 am

Revelation wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I'm not really understanding this whole "digital conversion" thing, what exactly does this entail?

757 was designed before computer aided design was rampant.

The designs for it largely live on paper or mylar and not as digital files.

It also was designed before fly-by-wire.

It has a digital cockpit to deal with many aspects of flying the airplane, but you still have cables and pulleys running to the rudder, etc.

MartijnNL wrote:
WN732 wrote:
Even if Boeing wanted to, there would be no way to bring any version of the 757 back. The tooling is gone.

If Boeing really wanted they could build the 757 again. It doesn't matter that the tooling is gone. They could easily make new tooling.

Right, and as above they could do so for 727, 707, DC8, etc but it doesn't make sense to do so.

The tooling would be all-new from the FAA's point of view so there is the added expense of getting a new production certification to deal with.


Nice, got it. Thanks for that. If that's the case then what's the deal with the 767-300ER? Same systems as the 752 but Boeing can still make the plane right?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 20893
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:05 am

N649DL wrote:
Nice, got it. Thanks for that. If that's the case then what's the deal with the 767-300ER? Same systems as the 752 but Boeing can still make the plane right?

I'd say they are similar in terms of design and construction.

They differ in that the last 757 was built ~15 years ago. The supply chain is closed, The production certifications have lapsed.

The 767 supply chain is not closed, The production certifications have not lapsed. Money was put in to the plane and it's production line for the KC46 contract. The tanker contract is expected to go for 179 frames. FX and UPS have large orders and keep making incremental purchases as they are finding it is a good match for their needs.

I would not be surprised if the KC46 work drove Boeing to create digital representations of large parts of the 767. It's hard to imagine them making such major changes while conforming to 1970s design methods. Clearly there is no need to do that for 757 since it's been out of production for ~15 years now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_76 ... deliveries suggests they have 99 more 767 orders than deliveries. Boeing is actually increasing the production rate to 3/month in 2020 ( ref: https://www.boeing.com/company/about-bc ... 25-18.page ).
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:13 am

hOMSaR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

The real question is if this would have produced a viable product, and the answer is no.

The 757 fell out of favor because it was a strongly built thus heavy airframe that had been stretched as far as it could be stretched.

Better engines would mean you burn less fuel so most of the time you fly around big, heavy and empty wing tanks.


Exactly. I still don't quite get the 757 fetish on here. The plane, over the course of its entire history, delivered an average of 3.6 planes per month.

It was good at what it did when it was new. Then lighter planes (including the 737) took over that role as they got more capable. If Boeing had kept the 757 in production for the past 14 years, it would have had its tailcone handed to it in the marketplace vs. the A320 series, and meanwhile the 737NG (which moved into the 757's production space) would have had a much smaller production run on account of lack of facilities. Ignoring the whole "tooling" discussion, a 757 MAX would still be too heavy, and so it would still be soundly defeated in the marketplace by the A320neo. Plus, it wouldn't be able to use the neo engine, because those are 10,000 pounds too weak in the thrust range, so you'd need a brand new engine in the 40,000 pound thrust category (of which there really isn't one at the moment) which would then increase the cost of development even further. So, you'd have a too-heavy airplane with a more powerful (and thirstier) engine competing against lighter and far more efficient airframe/engine combos, costing a lot more per frame. Any one of those factors is likely to hamstring you in the marketplace. All of them put together, and there's absolutely no way an airline would want it.

A hypothetical "757MAX" to compete in the A320/737-800 market makes about as much economical sense as a 737-600 or A318.


There is yet to be a 200 seat narrowbody that matches the performance characteristics of a 757. Heavy yes, but jumped off a runway like no other. 737-9s are runway pigs and the A321 isn’t much better no matter what people think about it. If the tooling was there, a new wing, new engines, new flight deck and maybe some lighter aluminum skin and additional composites spread around might have been enough.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19314
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:16 am

strfyr51 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

The real question is if this would have produced a viable product, and the answer is no.

The 757 fell out of favor because it was a strongly built thus heavy airframe that had been stretched as far as it could be stretched.

Better engines would mean you burn less fuel so most of the time you fly around big, heavy and empty wing tanks.


Exactly. I still don't quite get the 757 fetish on here. The plane, over the course of its entire history, delivered an average of 3.6 planes per month.

It was good at what it did when it was new. Then lighter planes (including the 737) took over that role as they got more capable. If Boeing had kept the 757 in production for the past 14 years, it would have had its tailcone handed to it in the marketplace vs. the A320 series, and meanwhile the 737NG (which moved into the 757's production space) would have had a much smaller production run on account of lack of facilities. Ignoring the whole "tooling" discussion, a 757 MAX would still be too heavy, and so it would still be soundly defeated in the marketplace by the A320neo. Plus, it wouldn't be able to use the neo engine, because those are 10,000 pounds too weak in the thrust range, so you'd need a brand new engine in the 40,000 pound thrust category (of which there really isn't one at the moment) which would then increase the cost of development even further. So, you'd have a too-heavy airplane with a more powerful (and thirstier) engine competing against lighter and far more efficient airframe/engine combos, costing a lot more per frame. Any one of those factors is likely to hamstring you in the marketplace. All of them put together, and there's absolutely no way an airline would want it.

A hypothetical "757MAX" to compete in the A320/737-800 market makes about as much economical sense as a 737-600 or A318.

what are you talking about? The 757 even today performs as good as the A321 which is just a cheap copy of the B757. If Boeing right today announced an updated digital 0version of the B757 the A321 sales would plummet!


I doubt it. The 321 would likely beat a revamped 757 on fuel burn per seat. The clincher is that all those 320/321 customers save a lot of money with commonality.

DL717 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

The real question is if this would have produced a viable product, and the answer is no.

The 757 fell out of favor because it was a strongly built thus heavy airframe that had been stretched as far as it could be stretched.

Better engines would mean you burn less fuel so most of the time you fly around big, heavy and empty wing tanks.


Exactly. I still don't quite get the 757 fetish on here. The plane, over the course of its entire history, delivered an average of 3.6 planes per month.

It was good at what it did when it was new. Then lighter planes (including the 737) took over that role as they got more capable. If Boeing had kept the 757 in production for the past 14 years, it would have had its tailcone handed to it in the marketplace vs. the A320 series, and meanwhile the 737NG (which moved into the 757's production space) would have had a much smaller production run on account of lack of facilities. Ignoring the whole "tooling" discussion, a 757 MAX would still be too heavy, and so it would still be soundly defeated in the marketplace by the A320neo. Plus, it wouldn't be able to use the neo engine, because those are 10,000 pounds too weak in the thrust range, so you'd need a brand new engine in the 40,000 pound thrust category (of which there really isn't one at the moment) which would then increase the cost of development even further. So, you'd have a too-heavy airplane with a more powerful (and thirstier) engine competing against lighter and far more efficient airframe/engine combos, costing a lot more per frame. Any one of those factors is likely to hamstring you in the marketplace. All of them put together, and there's absolutely no way an airline would want it.

A hypothetical "757MAX" to compete in the A320/737-800 market makes about as much economical sense as a 737-600 or A318.


There is yet to be a 200 seat narrowbody that matches the performance characteristics of a 757. Heavy yes, but jumped off a runway like no other. 737-9s are runway pigs and the A321 isn’t much better no matter what people think about it. If the tooling was there, a new wing, new engines, new flight deck and maybe some lighter aluminum skin and additional composites spread around might have been enough.


Jumping off the runway is all well and good, but all the aircraft needs to do is meet the regulatory requirements.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
aeropix
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:52 am

AirbusCanada wrote:
I was wondering would it be easier for Boeing (from a technical perspective) to base the MAX on a 757 platform instead of 737


ABSOLUTELY YES! I have been saying for decades that one of the biggest mistakes Boeing ever made was to withhold the 757-100. If you study the history of the industry in the mid-1980's there was a huge demand for a 2-class 150 seat airplane, it was a huge hole in the market that was filled up by the A320 in 1987.

Boeing should have rolled out the 757-100 to compete in this segment, ditching the heavy dual-tandem gear for a 737 style single axle main gear. History would have worked out entirely differently, perhaps the A320 would have even been a flop given that the 757-100 had at least a 5 year head start in the market segment.

It was the pressure from Eastern and British for the larger -200 variant that eventually led to the "overbuilt" design that further led Boeing to put out the grossly underperforming 737-400 to compete in that 150 seat space rather than the 20-years newer technology of the 757-100. Airbus made huge inroads into the 150 seat space with the modern A320, the 737 program of that time didn't stand a chance against this clean sheet airbus design. The 757-100 based on a much more modern platform would have cornered the naroowbody market for decades to come, and the large new 737's would not exist, instead this segment would be filled by modernizations of the 757 platform, with the smaller landing gear.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19314
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:13 am

Since the 757 did not survive, it was never modernised, unlike the 32x. Would modernising the platform really be better than a clean sheet? I seriously doubt it. I don't even know if it would be cheaper.

Just the cost of digitising the plans would be massive. The design would also have to be converted to FBW, because nothing else makes sense since the early 90s.

Boeing has the know-how to produce a class-leading clean-sheet design. There's no need to rehash the past. Would such a design look a bit like a 757? Sure. But that's not the same as re-using the 757 platform.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
RalXWB
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:58 am

strfyr51 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

The real question is if this would have produced a viable product, and the answer is no.

The 757 fell out of favor because it was a strongly built thus heavy airframe that had been stretched as far as it could be stretched.

Better engines would mean you burn less fuel so most of the time you fly around big, heavy and empty wing tanks.


Exactly. I still don't quite get the 757 fetish on here. The plane, over the course of its entire history, delivered an average of 3.6 planes per month.

It was good at what it did when it was new. Then lighter planes (including the 737) took over that role as they got more capable. If Boeing had kept the 757 in production for the past 14 years, it would have had its tailcone handed to it in the marketplace vs. the A320 series, and meanwhile the 737NG (which moved into the 757's production space) would have had a much smaller production run on account of lack of facilities. Ignoring the whole "tooling" discussion, a 757 MAX would still be too heavy, and so it would still be soundly defeated in the marketplace by the A320neo. Plus, it wouldn't be able to use the neo engine, because those are 10,000 pounds too weak in the thrust range, so you'd need a brand new engine in the 40,000 pound thrust category (of which there really isn't one at the moment) which would then increase the cost of development even further. So, you'd have a too-heavy airplane with a more powerful (and thirstier) engine competing against lighter and far more efficient airframe/engine combos, costing a lot more per frame. Any one of those factors is likely to hamstring you in the marketplace. All of them put together, and there's absolutely no way an airline would want it.

A hypothetical "757MAX" to compete in the A320/737-800 market makes about as much economical sense as a 737-600 or A318.

what are you talking about? The 757 even today performs as good as the A321 which is just a cheap copy of the B757. If Boeing right today announced an updated digital 0version of the B757 the A321 sales would plummet!


You win the Internet today!
 
User avatar
WesternDC6B
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:05 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:19 am

WN732 wrote:
Even if Boeing wanted to, there would be no way to bring any version of the 757 back. The tooling is gone. Boeing envisioned the 7E7 at the time would fill that gap and also fill up to the 764's gap. When the 787 was introduced, they were to build the 787-3 to replace the 757. This never happened and it was too late to go back to the 757 for a re-engine. The end.


I am far from being an aviation engineer, so this question: would a 787-3 be feasible at this point? Or - for the capacity and range - are there better aircraft being offered? Thank you.
Remember: Only one dwarf in seven is Happy.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:01 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

Exactly. I still don't quite get the 757 fetish on here. The plane, over the course of its entire history, delivered an average of 3.6 planes per month.

It was good at what it did when it was new. Then lighter planes (including the 737) took over that role as they got more capable. If Boeing had kept the 757 in production for the past 14 years, it would have had its tailcone handed to it in the marketplace vs. the A320 series, and meanwhile the 737NG (which moved into the 757's production space) would have had a much smaller production run on account of lack of facilities. Ignoring the whole "tooling" discussion, a 757 MAX would still be too heavy, and so it would still be soundly defeated in the marketplace by the A320neo. Plus, it wouldn't be able to use the neo engine, because those are 10,000 pounds too weak in the thrust range, so you'd need a brand new engine in the 40,000 pound thrust category (of which there really isn't one at the moment) which would then increase the cost of development even further. So, you'd have a too-heavy airplane with a more powerful (and thirstier) engine competing against lighter and far more efficient airframe/engine combos, costing a lot more per frame. Any one of those factors is likely to hamstring you in the marketplace. All of them put together, and there's absolutely no way an airline would want it.

A hypothetical "757MAX" to compete in the A320/737-800 market makes about as much economical sense as a 737-600 or A318.

what are you talking about? The 757 even today performs as good as the A321 which is just a cheap copy of the B757. If Boeing right today announced an updated digital 0version of the B757 the A321 sales would plummet!


I doubt it. The 321 would likely beat a revamped 757 on fuel burn per seat. The clincher is that all those 320/321 customers save a lot of money with commonality.

DL717 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

Exactly. I still don't quite get the 757 fetish on here. The plane, over the course of its entire history, delivered an average of 3.6 planes per month.

It was good at what it did when it was new. Then lighter planes (including the 737) took over that role as they got more capable. If Boeing had kept the 757 in production for the past 14 years, it would have had its tailcone handed to it in the marketplace vs. the A320 series, and meanwhile the 737NG (which moved into the 757's production space) would have had a much smaller production run on account of lack of facilities. Ignoring the whole "tooling" discussion, a 757 MAX would still be too heavy, and so it would still be soundly defeated in the marketplace by the A320neo. Plus, it wouldn't be able to use the neo engine, because those are 10,000 pounds too weak in the thrust range, so you'd need a brand new engine in the 40,000 pound thrust category (of which there really isn't one at the moment) which would then increase the cost of development even further. So, you'd have a too-heavy airplane with a more powerful (and thirstier) engine competing against lighter and far more efficient airframe/engine combos, costing a lot more per frame. Any one of those factors is likely to hamstring you in the marketplace. All of them put together, and there's absolutely no way an airline would want it.

A hypothetical "757MAX" to compete in the A320/737-800 market makes about as much economical sense as a 737-600 or A318.


There is yet to be a 200 seat narrowbody that matches the performance characteristics of a 757. Heavy yes, but jumped off a runway like no other. 737-9s are runway pigs and the A321 isn’t much better no matter what people think about it. If the tooling was there, a new wing, new engines, new flight deck and maybe some lighter aluminum skin and additional composites spread around might have been enough.


Jumping off the runway is all well and good, but all the aircraft needs to do is meet the regulatory requirements.


Except when you need short field performance.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:10 pm

aeropix wrote:
AirbusCanada wrote:
I was wondering would it be easier for Boeing (from a technical perspective) to base the MAX on a 757 platform instead of 737


ABSOLUTELY YES! I have been saying for decades that one of the biggest mistakes Boeing ever made was to withhold the 757-100. If you study the history of the industry in the mid-1980's there was a huge demand for a 2-class 150 seat airplane, it was a huge hole in the market that was filled up by the A320 in 1987.

Boeing should have rolled out the 757-100 to compete in this segment, ditching the heavy dual-tandem gear for a 737 style single axle main gear. History would have worked out entirely differently, perhaps the A320 would have even been a flop given that the 757-100 had at least a 5 year head start in the market segment.

It was the pressure from Eastern and British for the larger -200 variant that eventually led to the "overbuilt" design that further led Boeing to put out the grossly underperforming 737-400 to compete in that 150 seat space rather than the 20-years newer technology of the 757-100. Airbus made huge inroads into the 150 seat space with the modern A320, the 737 program of that time didn't stand a chance against this clean sheet airbus design. The 757-100 based on a much more modern platform would have cornered the naroowbody market for decades to come, and the large new 737's would not exist, instead this segment would be filled by modernizations of the 757 platform, with the smaller landing gear.


The 757-100 would have been doomed from day 1. It is just way too big, in negative ways at that. It uses engines that are closer to the 767s than the A320s, which means much greater fuel burn. Same goes for the wings, 185 sq. meters vs 124. The 757s wing is as big as an A320s and an ATRs combined. That's just dead weight. The landing gear, empennage and so on are the same. The fuselage has similar dimensions to the A32X series, but that's about as far as similarities go. A 757-100 would be overbuilt and heavy, with just about the worst CASM you could imagine.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6274
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:05 pm

DL717 wrote:
Except when you need short field performance.


While the A321 can be a dog at higher altitudes, it is no slouch off the runway. Normally it has better field performance than the A320.

Max thrust, Config 3 on the advanced wing and it's a real kick in the pants!

That big thick Boeing wing on the 757 will always do better though, but .... dragging all that unnecessary wing around at cruise is very expensive. Its not just the weight that is against it.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:19 pm

longhauler wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Except when you need short field performance.


While the A321 can be a dog at higher altitudes, it is no slouch off the runway. Normally it has better field performance than the A320.

Max thrust, Config 3 on the advanced wing and it's a real kick in the pants!


It's a slouch bro. 75 kills it every time. Fat or not. Now imagine a 75 with all that fat taken out of it. That would be a kick in the pants.

Then again, they'd probably value engineer out the thrust and turn it into a turd these days because 90% of airports don't have any runway length issues. Cube dwellers don't think much about that 10% like they used to, so we get performance turds.

The closest a recent aircraft has come to a 757 in terms of airfield performance was the 787-3. It was 6,400-feet of runway sea level/hot day at MTOW (7,200' at altitude). Man that would have been a ride.
Last edited by DL717 on Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3417
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:21 pm

Had this done for some unthinkable reason it would have required a new type rating for most of the existing 737 customer base, and other than the direct operations cost advantages the MAX was supposed to bring with it, there would little incentive for the likes of SWA and other existing customers to line up for this. I'm confident that if there a a moments thought regarding this concept, it was rejected in a nano second.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:25 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Had this done for some unthinkable reason it would have required a new type rating for most of the existing 737 customer base, and other than the direct operations cost advantages the MAX was supposed to bring with it, there would little incentive for the likes of SWA and other existing customers to line up for this. I'm confident that if there a a moments thought regarding this concept, it was rejected in a nano second.


It wouldn't have been targeted at Southwest. It would have been targeted at 757/767 operators. The 737 should have simply been replaced.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3417
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:59 pm

Well while don't disagree that the 737 needs a definitive replacement the SWA involvement with the MAX cannot be overlooked. BTW, if there is an airplane that needs to see the bone yard its the 717's at DL.
 
Redsand187
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:47 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:54 pm

The real question in my mind, which I'm sure has been answered somewhere before. Why couldn't they design taller telescoping landing gear?

In 50 years, I'm sure there has been enough improvement in technology and materials that they could figure out how to build landing gear that would fit in the original location but have additional stages of telescoping ability allowing the plane to sit a couple of feet higher. Thus, allowing larger engines to hang from the same height as the NG's and maintain balance closer to the original.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19314
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:00 pm

DL717 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Except when you need short field performance.


While the A321 can be a dog at higher altitudes, it is no slouch off the runway. Normally it has better field performance than the A320.

Max thrust, Config 3 on the advanced wing and it's a real kick in the pants!


It's a slouch bro. 75 kills it every time. Fat or not. Now imagine a 75 with all that fat taken out of it. That would be a kick in the pants.

Then again, they'd probably value engineer out the thrust and turn it into a turd these days because 90% of airports don't have any runway length issues. Cube dwellers don't think much about that 10% like they used to, so we get performance turds.

The closest a recent aircraft has come to a 757 in terms of airfield performance was the 787-3. It was 6,400-feet of runway sea level/hot day at MTOW (7,200' at altitude). Man that would have been a ride.


That's the thing though. "90% of airports don't have any runway length issues". So why design an aircraft for the 10%?

Redsand187 wrote:
The real question in my mind, which I'm sure has been answered somewhere before. Why couldn't they design taller telescoping landing gear?

In 50 years, I'm sure there has been enough improvement in technology and materials that they could figure out how to build landing gear that would fit in the original location but have additional stages of telescoping ability allowing the plane to sit a couple of feet higher. Thus, allowing larger engines to hang from the same height as the NG's and maintain balance closer to the original.


Such gear has existed for a long time. The A330 has gear that shortens on retraction and lengthens on extension.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:59 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Well while don't disagree that the 737 needs a definitive replacement the SWA involvement with the MAX cannot be overlooked. BTW, if there is an airplane that needs to see the bone yard its the 717's at DL.


Pfft.

Starlionblue wrote:

That's the thing though. "90% of airports don't have any runway length issues". So why design an aircraft for the 10%?



Because that 10% exists, and its usually a constrained airport that needs capacity.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
BlueberryWheats
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:46 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:03 pm

DL717 wrote:
Because that 10% exists, and its usually a constrained airport that needs capacity.


Still only 10% though, probably easier just to add frequency with a slightly smaller aircraft with better runway performance.
 
N649DL
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Nice, got it. Thanks for that. If that's the case then what's the deal with the 767-300ER? Same systems as the 752 but Boeing can still make the plane right?

I'd say they are similar in terms of design and construction.

They differ in that the last 757 was built ~15 years ago. The supply chain is closed, The production certifications have lapsed.

The 767 supply chain is not closed, The production certifications have not lapsed. Money was put in to the plane and it's production line for the KC46 contract. The tanker contract is expected to go for 179 frames. FX and UPS have large orders and keep making incremental purchases as they are finding it is a good match for their needs.

I would not be surprised if the KC46 work drove Boeing to create digital representations of large parts of the 767. It's hard to imagine them making such major changes while conforming to 1970s design methods. Clearly there is no need to do that for 757 since it's been out of production for ~15 years now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_76 ... deliveries suggests they have 99 more 767 orders than deliveries. Boeing is actually increasing the production rate to 3/month in 2020 ( ref: https://www.boeing.com/company/about-bc ... 25-18.page ).


Interesting. Also, DL and UA have participated in life extension projects for their 763ERs as well. Some of UA's are 27 years old and have new Polaris interiors.

The 763ER is in a bit of renaissance mode right now but if the 757 was still around, it probably would as well. The 763ER didn't close for (as you said) cargo and military contracts which was never a thing with the 757 except 2nd hand.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 20893
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:22 pm

N649DL wrote:
The 763ER didn't close for (as you said) cargo and military contracts which was never a thing with the 757 except 2nd hand.

I think DHL bought some 757 P2F new from the factory.

It will be interesting to see how long FX/5X can keep their 757s going.

Seems the only viable alternatives will be to upgrade to 76F or downgrade to 737-8F conversions.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6274
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:56 pm

DL717 wrote:
Because that 10% exists, and its usually a constrained airport that needs capacity.


I don't follow you. Are you saying a "constrained" airport has shorter runways?

I am a bit dubious even of 10%. I can only think of a couple of operations where runway length could be an issue (SNA or EYW come to mind). So I'd peg it more lilke 2% or 3%. Even still, take your 10%. That means 90% of the time, the A321 is far more efficient than a 757. That is huge, and likely why only about 1000 757s have been built and the A321 now more than 4500 built/ordered.

In my opinion, Boeing should have taken the 757 along the evolution of the 737.

The 737-100 to -500 had an amazing short field wing. During design in the 1960s, runway length was a big concern. But ... that came at a cost. Like the 757, pulling that thick wing through the air was expensive. Normal cruise was only about M 0.74. When Airbus introduced the A320, the similar sized 737-400 was at a disadvantage. Not only was it slower, but fuel burns were higher.

Enter the 737NG. A320 size, A320 speed and A320 economics. As we all know, the NG was a winner. Using that new slim wing, it cruised at M 0.80 and burned less fuel. Sure, you couldn't take off from a 4000' runway .... but 99% of the time, you didn't have to.

If Boeing has done the same thing with the 757 wing, it would have better competed against the A321. But I had always thought they saw larger versions of the 737 to be the answer. And it basically is.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
N649DL wrote:
The 763ER didn't close for (as you said) cargo and military contracts which was never a thing with the 757 except 2nd hand.

I think DHL bought some 757 P2F new from the factory.

It will be interesting to see how long FX/5X can keep their 757s going.

Seems the only viable alternatives will be to upgrade to 76F or downgrade to 737-8F conversions.


Or, you know, one of the several A321P2F conversions under development...
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 20893
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:20 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Revelation wrote:
N649DL wrote:
The 763ER didn't close for (as you said) cargo and military contracts which was never a thing with the 757 except 2nd hand.

I think DHL bought some 757 P2F new from the factory.

It will be interesting to see how long FX/5X can keep their 757s going.

Seems the only viable alternatives will be to upgrade to 76F or downgrade to 737-8F conversions.


Or, you know, one of the several A321P2F conversions under development...

Do tell.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I think DHL bought some 757 P2F new from the factory.

It will be interesting to see how long FX/5X can keep their 757s going.

Seems the only viable alternatives will be to upgrade to 76F or downgrade to 737-8F conversions.


Or, you know, one of the several A321P2F conversions under development...

Do tell.


EFW, ATSG and C3 are all working on A320 and A321 conversions. ATSG has mentioned a rollout in the second half of 2019, EFW says the start of 2020 and C3 says summer 2020 for its first A320F and end of 2020 for their first A321F.

Hardly new information, has been discussed multiple times on this forum.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 20893
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:
EFW, ATSG and C3 are all working on A320 and A321 conversions. ATSG has mentioned a rollout in the second half of 2019, EFW says the start of 2020 and C3 says summer 2020 for its first A320F and end of 2020 for their first A321F.

Hardly new information, has been discussed multiple times on this forum.

Oh well, guess it slipped me mind.

Thanks for the update.

Nice to see these excellent aircraft go on to have second lives.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:23 am

DL717 wrote:
Cube dwellers don't think much about that 10% like they used to, so we get performance turds. The closest a recent aircraft has come to a 757 in terms of airfield performance was the 787-3. It was 6,400-feet of runway sea level/hot day at MTOW (7,200' at altitude). Man that would have been a ride.


WesternDC6B wrote:
WN732 wrote:
When the 787 was introduced, they were to build the 787-3 to replace the 757. This never happened and it was too late to go back to the 757 for a re-engine. The end.

I am far from being an aviation engineer, so this question: would a 787-3 be feasible at this point? Or - for the capacity and range - are there better aircraft being offered? Thank you.


The 787-3 was intended more as a 787SR - an evolution of the 767-300 primarily for the Japanese domestic market - than as a 757 replacement. It was dropped to prioritise delivery of the 788, and also because it was established that the operating economics would be trash - to the extent that the 788 was more efficient once stage length got past something like 400 nmi.

But hey, at least it wouldn't be a performance turd :roll:
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:20 am

longhauler wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Because that 10% exists, and its usually a constrained airport that needs capacity.


I don't follow you. Are you saying a "constrained" airport has shorter runways?


Orange County (gate cap), Midway (built out), La Guardia (slotted), Reagan (slotted), San Diego (slotted inside of 10), Burbank (gate cap). All constrained. All limited operational capacity airports with short runways or terrain impacted runways. The industry needs a 200 seat plane that serve these markets effectively with little or no weight/range penalty regardless of runway directional use.

Prime example. DL has no option to the 757 for SNA to ATL or DTW other than to down-gauge.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
LH707330
Posts: 2188
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:37 am

DL717 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Because that 10% exists, and its usually a constrained airport that needs capacity.


I don't follow you. Are you saying a "constrained" airport has shorter runways?


Orange County (gate cap), Midway (built out), La Guardia (slotted), Reagan (slotted), San Diego (slotted inside of 10), Burbank (gate cap). All constrained. All limited operational capacity airports with short runways or terrain impacted runways. The industry needs a 200 seat plane that serve these markets effectively with little or no weight/range penalty regardless of runway directional use.

Prime example. DL has no option to the 757 for SNA to ATL or DTW other than to down-gauge.

We keep arguing about whether B can sell enough 797s to make the case for spending $10B. If there were a case to be made for an A321 competitor with better field performance and a 5% CASM penalty, someone would have done it by now.

Regarding DL's options for SNA, they can either send a 319 or add a stop in SLC so they can make weight. Life will go on without the 757.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:41 am

LH707330 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
longhauler wrote:

I don't follow you. Are you saying a "constrained" airport has shorter runways?


Orange County (gate cap), Midway (built out), La Guardia (slotted), Reagan (slotted), San Diego (slotted inside of 10), Burbank (gate cap). All constrained. All limited operational capacity airports with short runways or terrain impacted runways. The industry needs a 200 seat plane that serve these markets effectively with little or no weight/range penalty regardless of runway directional use.

Prime example. DL has no option to the 757 for SNA to ATL or DTW other than to down-gauge.

We keep arguing about whether B can sell enough 797s to make the case for spending $10B. If there were a case to be made for an A321 competitor with better field performance and a 5% CASM penalty, someone would have done it by now.

Regarding DL's options for SNA, they can either send a 319 or add a stop in SLC so they can make weight. Life will go on without the 757.


So adding more flights in smaller aircraft would be possible without adding gates to retain market share is what you’re saying. And seriously a tech stop? Thanks for proving my point.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 588
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:11 am

stxbohn wrote:
I guess the 737 was digitized at some point? Between 737 classic and 737 NG?


A Boeing engineer who worked on the wing of the -700 and -800 told me this was the case.

He also told me that there is really zero commonality component-wise between the NG and earlier series - the NG was essentially a clean-sheet.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19314
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:11 am

BlueberryWheats wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Because that 10% exists, and its usually a constrained airport that needs capacity.


Still only 10% though, probably easier just to add frequency with a slightly smaller aircraft with better runway performance.


Or just limit payload/fuel.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: theAviationGeek and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos