BlueberryWheats
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:23 am

Starlionblue wrote:
BlueberryWheats wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Because that 10% exists, and its usually a constrained airport that needs capacity.


Still only 10% though, probably easier just to add frequency with a slightly smaller aircraft with better runway performance.


Or just limit payload/fuel.


Yup, even easier.
 
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DL717
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:36 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
BlueberryWheats wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Because that 10% exists, and its usually a constrained airport that needs capacity.


Still only 10% though, probably easier just to add frequency with a slightly smaller aircraft with better runway performance.


Or just limit payload/fuel.


So limit range (no more Atlanta) or short sell your capacity. You guys have this locked down. You should work in revenue management!
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:45 pm

DL717 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
BlueberryWheats wrote:

Still only 10% though, probably easier just to add frequency with a slightly smaller aircraft with better runway performance.


Or just limit payload/fuel.


So limit range (no more Atlanta) or short sell your capacity. You guys have this locked down. You should work in revenue management!


Quick look in both OEMs ACAP tells me that an A321neo can lift of a 6000 feet runway with 190.000 pounds, a 752 can lift off the same runway with 228.000 pounds....

It's some 17.000 pounds heavier to begin with, so it has 21.000 pounds more for payload and fuel, of which it needs a good deal more to get where it is going. With 200 pax an hour more range?

Seems to be a pretty tight corner where the 752 really does more, for a lot more money.... at least as far as pure runway length is concerned.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:31 pm

DL717 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
BlueberryWheats wrote:

Still only 10% though, probably easier just to add frequency with a slightly smaller aircraft with better runway performance.


Or just limit payload/fuel.


So limit range (no more Atlanta) or short sell your capacity. You guys have this locked down. You should work in revenue management!


Advocating the production of a whole aircraft model just on the off chance that some airline might need it to serve one of 10% of worldwide airports?

You should be on the Boeing board of directors.
 
LH707330
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:38 pm

DL717 wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Orange County (gate cap), Midway (built out), La Guardia (slotted), Reagan (slotted), San Diego (slotted inside of 10), Burbank (gate cap). All constrained. All limited operational capacity airports with short runways or terrain impacted runways. The industry needs a 200 seat plane that serve these markets effectively with little or no weight/range penalty regardless of runway directional use.

Prime example. DL has no option to the 757 for SNA to ATL or DTW other than to down-gauge.

We keep arguing about whether B can sell enough 797s to make the case for spending $10B. If there were a case to be made for an A321 competitor with better field performance and a 5% CASM penalty, someone would have done it by now.

Regarding DL's options for SNA, they can either send a 319 or add a stop in SLC so they can make weight. Life will go on without the 757.


So adding more flights in smaller aircraft would be possible without adding gates to retain market share is what you’re saying. And seriously a tech stop? Thanks for proving my point.

I put an OR in there. So you can send a 319 and charge higher fares, OR you send a 321 and make a tech stop. If it's that big of a problem, airlines would kick and scream for a new 757, but they're not. They're kicking and screaming for every last percentage point of CASM, and buying shedloads of 321s.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am

LH707330 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
We keep arguing about whether B can sell enough 797s to make the case for spending $10B. If there were a case to be made for an A321 competitor with better field performance and a 5% CASM penalty, someone would have done it by now.

Regarding DL's options for SNA, they can either send a 319 or add a stop in SLC so they can make weight. Life will go on without the 757.


So adding more flights in smaller aircraft would be possible without adding gates to retain market share is what you’re saying. And seriously a tech stop? Thanks for proving my point.

I put an OR in there. So you can send a 319 and charge higher fares, OR you send a 321 and make a tech stop


And give you at least equal or better costs per seat on top of higher revenue per seat. No wonder 757 are momited to routes basically no other aircraft time can do....

Plus of course... the A321XLR is supposed to get of the tarmac like 93.5ton standard A321 at 101t. Should give it 757esk runway performance on top of more range and lower costs.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tullamarine
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:07 am

So to summarise this thread:
    It was not possible to base the MAX on the 757; maybe the NG could've been but now the world has moved on and it's not an option
    The 757 would've solved the ground clearance issues of the 737 but would've created a whole lot of other issues around weight
    SWA was a key in the NG decision process and would not have accepted the 757 option at the time when it was more interested in the 700 series size.
    The 757 was built for a comparatively small niche principally in the US; over time this niche has continued to shrink and the A321 has proven to be the more competitively configured offering
    Without a new wing and much lighter engines, the 757 would always struggle to be anything approaching competitive
    The 757 was no wider than 737 and didn't allow containerised luggage so still had some deficiencies compared with the A321

Reviving the 757 has been an ongoing canon of A.net but realistically was always a fantasy of those who thought "blasting off the deck" was actually a KPI in aircraft selection.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:00 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
what are you talking about? The 757 even today performs as good as the A321 which is just a cheap copy of the B757. If Boeing right today announced an updated digital 0version of the B757 the A321 sales would plummet!


The 757 performs as well as an A321LR on about 30% more fuel burn.

The loss of tooling means that new tooling would have to be built. The original blueprints of the tooling may not still be around, so that would mean a change in production methods, meaning that the entire airframe would need to be recertified. The wing is pre-CFD (or mostly) and so the wing would need to be relofted. While they're at it, they'd probably need to make the wing out of CFRP. All these changes mean that the cable control system is not a good idea and really, there needs to be conversion to FBW and by the time you're done, you no longer have a 757.

The A321LR is the 757 replacement.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:57 pm

DocLightning wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
what are you talking about? The 757 even today performs as good as the A321 which is just a cheap copy of the B757. If Boeing right today announced an updated digital 0version of the B757 the A321 sales would plummet!


The 757 performs as well as an A321LR on about 30% more fuel burn.

The loss of tooling means that new tooling would have to be built. The original blueprints of the tooling may not still be around, so that would mean a change in production methods, meaning that the entire airframe would need to be recertified. The wing is pre-CFD (or mostly) and so the wing would need to be relofted. While they're at it, they'd probably need to make the wing out of CFRP. All these changes mean that the cable control system is not a good idea and really, there needs to be conversion to FBW and by the time you're done, you no longer have a 757.

The A321LR is the 757 replacement.


As Doc noted, the MAX of the 737 was basically the only option. If a plane with the 757 capabilities is needed today, it is time to do a clean sheet design. Further, I am sure that the FAA and EASA will do a hard review of any major changes to one of the older grandfathered models. There are lots of items that were grandfathered that really need to be included in any major update. I suspect the FAA is looking quite closely at the 777x currently. All probably are good outcomes.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:15 pm

DL717 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
BlueberryWheats wrote:

Still only 10% though, probably easier just to add frequency with a slightly smaller aircraft with better runway performance.


Or just limit payload/fuel.


So limit range (no more Atlanta) or short sell your capacity. You guys have this locked down. You should work in revenue management!



At the end of the day while the 757 is an amazing airplane and will be missed I think you are taking its capabilities too far and thinking it is the ultimate airplane
where as its corner in the market is being cannibalized by more modern aircraft. The thin TATL that the 757 made extremely popular is starting to be cannibalized by the A321LR or 737MAX(if/when it gets in the air) relegating the 757's capabilities to performance constrained airports which are becoming more and more limited.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:22 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
Since the root cause of most the 737Max related problems originate from trying to fit bigger diameter engines under low wings, I was wondering would it be easier for Boeing (from a technical perspective) to base the MAX on a 757 platform instead of 737.


Hundreds of thousands of people that asked that question. Excerpts from article posted on Feb 17, 2015
https://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/boeing-sees-no-business-case-757-max
The 757 replacement question has become an increasingly hot topic, particularly since Airbus upped the ante by launching the long-range A321neo LR variant in mid-January. Commenting on speculation about a re-engined 757, on Feb. 11, Boeing Commercial Marketing Vice President Randy Tinseth says, “The fact is, there’s absolutely no business case to support that. We’re very happy with our 737 and 787 product lineups. So we’re studying the space in between them. Customer feedback has led us to look at an airplane that is larger than today’s 737 and has greater range than the 757.”

If the MAX debacle gets considerably worse, Boeing has only three logical choices and they are all desperation moves.

(1) Resurrect the B767-300ER, and that is only because they are still producing freight versions.
(2) Resurrect the B737-800
(3) Make some radical improvement on the B787-8 to make it easier to produce and cheaper to operate.

Insertnamehere wrote:
At the end of the day while the 757 is an amazing airplane and will be missed I think you are taking its capabilities too far and thinking it is the ultimate airplane where as its corner in the market is being cannibalized by more modern aircraft.


An A321neo has an operating empty weight of 110,500 lbs, whereas a B757-200/300 has an OEW of 128,840 lb / 141,860 lbs. That's a considerable difference that comes right off the bottom line.
 
Planetalk
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:58 am

DL717 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Except when you need short field performance.


While the A321 can be a dog at higher altitudes, it is no slouch off the runway. Normally it has better field performance than the A320.

Max thrust, Config 3 on the advanced wing and it's a real kick in the pants!


It's a slouch bro. 75 kills it every time. Fat or not. Now imagine a 75 with all that fat taken out of it. That would be a kick in the pants.

Then again, they'd probably value engineer out the thrust and turn it into a turd these days because 90% of airports don't have any runway length issues. Cube dwellers don't think much about that 10% like they used to, so we get performance turds.

The closest a recent aircraft has come to a 757 in terms of airfield performance was the 787-3. It was 6,400-feet of runway sea level/hot day at MTOW (7,200' at altitude). Man that would have been a ride.


And here we see beautifully the difference between how an enthusiast would design a plane, and how a business that wants to make money actually designs a plane.

You think that airline executives of the airlines operating 90% (95% is more likely) would be happy paying for all the extra weight and fuel so people can get their kicks off a steep climb on a tiny proportion of airports?

This forum really is delusional at times. Then people say well if they re-do the 757 but with new engines, new wing, new cockpit, different landing gear etc. it'd wipe the floor with he rest. Well yeah, you've just describe a clean sheet. And no-one will build the engines for that tiny market niche.

As a plane enthusiast I love the 757. Though more as a spectacle than an experience, it also really isn't very comfortable, I would never take one, or any equivalent narrowbody transatlantic being a little claustrophobic.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:08 pm

Planetalk wrote:
And here we see beautifully the difference between how an enthusiast would design a plane, and how a business that wants to make money actually designs a plane.

Exactly. The 757 is a handsome aircraft, with a real kick in the pants push on take-off. But ...

Planetalk wrote:
You think that airline executives of the airlines operating 90% (95% is more likely) would be happy paying for all the extra weight and fuel so people can get their kicks off a steep climb on a tiny proportion of airports?

People keep saying it has the advantage over an A321 about 10% of the time. I would put that at closer to 1% of the time. That is, 1% of the time the 757 can perform a mission where the A321 can not.

That means to an airline executive, 99% of the time, the A321 is the better machine. No one buys an airplane to fulfill 1% performance. And .... clearly no one does. With sales of the A321 approaching five fold what the 757 sold, with no signs of stopping!

To me, the 757 is like the VC-10. A beautiful aircraft with capabilities that exceed most other aircraft, but ultimately an economic distaster.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
CowAnon
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:11 pm

How much damage to the 757's sales prospects was the result of its 38-meter wingspan not fitting into standard 36-m Code C gates?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:59 am

Probably zero, but good A.net talking point. The B757 goes just about everywhere.

GF
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:13 pm

September11 wrote:
I’m still curious about 757-100


It was too heavy even as just a concept, so no airline was interested. Shrinks usually are to heavy and uneconomical to operate.
 
N766UA
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Re: Was it possible to build the MAX on 757 Platform instead of 737

Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:30 pm

I think it’s funny that Boeing even used the same, old, oval window cutouts for the max and covered them up with rounded sidewall windows. Looks just as goofy from the outside as on the 757’s and older 737’s that have new interiors.

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