KlimaBXsst
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Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:47 pm

Will state of the art MCAS systems become adopted aviation advanced technology for any
future aircraft O T H E R than the 737 Series?

Or in other words, are MCAS systems an aviation technology

“evolutionary dead end,”

or will there be applications for this technology upon future, wide-body, supersonic, or general aviation aircraft types?
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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ADent
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:10 pm

No. With fly by wire you don’t need it .

There are other work arounds. Some Lear Jet got big strakes on the aft fuselage to fix similar problem.
 
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litz
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:20 pm

MCAS 2.0 is in the KC-46 (767 derivative), and it wouldn't surprise me to find there are similar systems in almost every other aircraft.

The problem with this system was never really what it did, from a conceptual standpoint. It was how it implemented what it did ... just a very poor design, with poor decision-making.
 
runway23
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:21 pm

Maybe, but we won't tell anyone.

Signed,
Boeing
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:25 pm

Just came across this thanks to a previous responder... so MCAS might not be “dead end evolutionary technology” it seems.

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... ystem.aspx
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
sketch
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:34 pm

"MCAS" in the 737 MAX exists only to make it handle similarly to the 737NG in certain regards while hand flying.

So it really depends on what you mean. "MCAS" specifically serves a very limited fact scenario which is unlikely to be found on any other aircraft. The 737 is uniquely low to the ground for a modern aircraft with underwing-mounted engines, and it is not fly-by-wire. Hence, you need an augmentation system, i.e., an add-on, that alters the natural handling characteristics of the hydraulic-mechanical flight control systems.

Fly-by-wire systems can simply be programmed around any differences in physical characteristics. Programming can make any aircraft handle more or less like any other aircraft. When the entire flight control system is controlled by computer anyway, there is no need to add on a computer to alter what the computer is already doing.

So no. There will be no more "MCAS" in passenger aircraft, as the 737 is the last remaining passenger aircraft in production that is not fly-by-wire.

(The KC-46 is not a passenger aircraft. To the extent the military continues to use old non-fly-by-wire designs, MCAS will likely remain a part of it. Like the 737 MAX, it is a re-engined version of a pre-existing non-fly-by-wire aircraft, the KC-767.)

Having said that, to the extent that you consider MCAS to be basically a specialized type of stall prevention mechanism, then stall prevention will of course continue to be a feature of all fly-by-wire aircraft as it has been in passenger aircraft for 35 years.
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:44 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
evolutionary dead end


737 is an evolutionary dead end. B should have started with clean sheet. If the thing had a proper center of gravity we wouldn't need the software turd-polisher.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:48 pm

It's a post-production system that was frankensteined onto a 4th-generation iteration of a half-century old model....

....what use would it be on a new aircraft with FBW designed into its core?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:15 pm

I fully expect to see more and more software in future airplanes. Maybe not as a stand alone solutions like MCAS, but the automation within the Fly By Wire system will only become more active to keep aircraft flying stable and safely. The whole MCAS debacle won't change that, there will more automation, the reliance on software will only increase.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:45 pm

It will likely be necessary on all future 737 derivatives since Boeing is terrified of clean-sheet designs. We’ll no doubt see it again on the
737-8Super8Max8Neo8XLR8...-8.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:45 pm

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but how about just making planes that are aerodynamically stable?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:06 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but how about just making planes that are aerodynamically stable?

lol so 20th century

why bother with aerodynamics if smart software can guarantee a smooth ride?
 
planecane
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
I fully expect to see more and more software in future airplanes. Maybe not as a stand alone solutions like MCAS, but the automation within the Fly By Wire system will only become more active to keep aircraft flying stable and safely. The whole MCAS debacle won't change that, there will more automation, the reliance on software will only increase.

If the MAX had been made FBW, the flight control computer would have just handled the change in characteristics and maintained the stick force gradient with artificial feel.

There's certainly a possibility that the A320NEO FBW was updated to adjust to the new engines.

It is highly unlikely that any future aircraft will change trim like MCAS does because it isn't needed. If Boeing would have solved the problem with the elevator feel computer instead of changing trim then we wouldn't be having these discussions. I assume they didn't because there was no easy way to input AoA into the elevator feel computer.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:07 pm

runway23 wrote:
Maybe, but we won't tell anyone.

Signed,
Boeing


Ouch! Sad but true. That's not going to be a popular opinion around these parts!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:26 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but how about just making planes that are aerodynamically stable?


Like all civil Part 25 aircraft, the 737MAX it is aerodynamically stable. Please end this unstable canard which pops up every 10th or so page, it’s wrong.

I suspect the refueling mission or the required boom dictated an MCAS-like system on the KC-46
 
 
Natflyer
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:05 pm

sketch wrote:
"MCAS" in the 737 MAX exists only to make it handle similarly to the 737NG in certain regards while hand flying.

So it really depends on what you mean. "MCAS" specifically serves a very limited fact scenario which is unlikely to be found on any other aircraft. The 737 is uniquely low to the ground for a modern aircraft with underwing-mounted engines, and it is not fly-by-wire. Hence, you need an augmentation system, i.e., an add-on, that alters the natural handling characteristics of the hydraulic-mechanical flight control systems.

Fly-by-wire systems can simply be programmed around any differences in physical characteristics. Programming can make any aircraft handle more or less like any other aircraft. When the entire flight control system is controlled by computer anyway, there is no need to add on a computer to alter what the computer is already doing.

So no. There will be no more "MCAS" in passenger aircraft, as the 737 is the last remaining passenger aircraft in production that is not fly-by-wire.

(The KC-46 is not a passenger aircraft. To the extent the military continues to use old non-fly-by-wire designs, MCAS will likely remain a part of it. Like the 737 MAX, it is a re-engined version of a pre-existing non-fly-by-wire aircraft, the KC-767.)

Having said that, to the extent that you consider MCAS to be basically a specialized type of stall prevention mechanism, then stall prevention will of course continue to be a feature of all fly-by-wire aircraft as it has been in passenger aircraft for 35 years.


The KC-46 is not re-engined. Same old tech PW4000 engines.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:28 am

sketch wrote:
"MCAS" in the 737 MAX exists only to make it handle similarly to the 737NG in certain regards while hand flying.

So it really depends on what you mean. "MCAS" specifically serves a very limited fact scenario which is unlikely to be found on any other aircraft. The 737 is uniquely low to the ground for a modern aircraft with underwing-mounted engines, and it is not fly-by-wire. Hence, you need an augmentation system, i.e., an add-on, that alters the natural handling characteristics of the hydraulic-mechanical flight control systems.

Fly-by-wire systems can simply be programmed around any differences in physical characteristics. Programming can make any aircraft handle more or less like any other aircraft. When the entire flight control system is controlled by computer anyway, there is no need to add on a computer to alter what the computer is already doing.

So no. There will be no more "MCAS" in passenger aircraft, as the 737 is the last remaining passenger aircraft in production that is not fly-by-wire.

(The KC-46 is not a passenger aircraft. To the extent the military continues to use old non-fly-by-wire designs, MCAS will likely remain a part of it. Like the 737 MAX, it is a re-engined version of a pre-existing non-fly-by-wire aircraft, the KC-767.)

Having said that, to the extent that you consider MCAS to be basically a specialized type of stall prevention mechanism, then stall prevention will of course continue to be a feature of all fly-by-wire aircraft as it has been in passenger aircraft for 35 years.


FBW wasn't on pax aircraft 35 years ago.

Not even close. In '84 if someone said FBW was going to be used on commercial planes in the distant future, they would have been laughed out of the building.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:31 am

Yea potentially the Boeing A320neo that was suggested in a thread earlier :/
 
Andy33
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:56 am

1989worstyear wrote:

FBW wasn't on pax aircraft 35 years ago.

Not even close. In '84 if someone said FBW was going to be used on commercial planes in the distant future, they would have been laughed out of the building.


Strange you picked on '84. That was the year that the A320 was launched onto the market. The first one flew in '87. A320s have never been anything other than fly-by-wire.
So laughter all round at the airlines that had actually ordered the thing by the end of 1984, or maybe not?
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:05 am

Andy33 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

FBW wasn't on pax aircraft 35 years ago.

Not even close. In '84 if someone said FBW was going to be used on commercial planes in the distant future, they would have been laughed out of the building.


Strange you picked on '84. That was the year that the A320 was launched onto the market. The first one flew in '87. A320s have never been anything other than fly-by-wire.
So laughter all round at the airlines that had actually ordered the thing by the end of 1984, or maybe not?


It was still a paper airplane with an undefined configuration - a good comparison would be the Apollo lunar module when Kennedy made his speech.
The technology was unheard of in '84 to produce the A320, pretty much science fiction at that point really.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
WIederling
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:48 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but how about just making planes that are aerodynamically stable?


You have to work with what is in your hand. The basic 737 frame with state of the art engines added is FUBAR.

Actually it is the big bag of "can't change without nixing the certification and making unmovable customers unhappy" that makes bringing closure to problem solving impossible.
Another historic process that add to the melee is shaving away at things under the hood ( like smaller Trim wheels): The "skin of safety" does no longer break at small places in a benign way it comes off in large shreds under even small transgressions.

( as it is the same process that turned a small issue ( locally overvaluing real estate property ) into the GFC.
If you even out the "safety landscape" you can have a higher tide/risk before anything gets wet but you also get everything gets wet at once of you go beyond that. Catastrophic failure from small, initially benign triggers.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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zeke
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:20 am

litz wrote:
MCAS 2.0 is in the KC-46 (767 derivative), and it wouldn't surprise me to find there are similar systems in almost every other aircraft.

The problem with this system was never really what it did, from a conceptual standpoint. It was how it implemented what it did ... just a very poor design, with poor decision-making.


I suspect to be technically correct it is the 767-2C that has MCAS, the the tanker derived from that.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:09 pm

sketch wrote:
"MCAS" in the 737 MAX exists only to make it handle similarly to the 737NG in certain regards while hand flying.


Which reminds me of the Shuttle Training Aircraft, a heavily modified Gulfstream II:

"A sophisticated computer system installed on board the STA simulated the flight dynamics of the orbiter with nearly perfect accuracy. The STA's highly realistic simulation of the orbiter was not limited to handling characteristics, but also implemented the shuttle control interfaces for the pilot."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Training_Aircraft

I don't know if it is ever a design consideration, but with enough FBW thrown at it, one could emulate the handling characteristics of a 737 in a 777 - which, in turn, can simplify pilot training.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
mxaxai
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:03 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I don't know if it is ever a design consideration, but with enough FBW thrown at it, one could emulate the handling characteristics of a 737 in a 777 - which, in turn, can simplify pilot training.

Isn't this exactly what Airbus does? At least in a family, all members are supposed to "feel" the same to the pilot. So they can fly an A321 almost exactly as they would fly an A318.
 
sketch
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:09 pm

Natflyer wrote:
The KC-46 is not re-engined. Same old tech PW4000 engines.

That's fair enough, although the KC-767 had CF6 engines. At any rate, the reason the KC-46 needs its maneuvering characteristics augmented is kind of beside the point—it's not fly-by-wire, so it needs patch-type systems like MCAS to accomplish that goal.

Andy33 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

FBW wasn't on pax aircraft 35 years ago.

Not even close. In '84 if someone said FBW was going to be used on commercial planes in the distant future, they would have been laughed out of the building.


Strange you picked on '84. That was the year that the A320 was launched onto the market. The first one flew in '87. A320s have never been anything other than fly-by-wire.
So laughter all round at the airlines that had actually ordered the thing by the end of 1984, or maybe not?

That's exactly why I said "stall prevention will of course continue to be a feature of all fly-by-wire aircraft as it has been in passenger aircraft for 35 years"—I picked that number on purpose as it was the year the A320 program started, presumably with fly-by-wire and stall prevention as part of the spec from the beginning. I could just as easily have said "31 years" or "32 years" for entry into service or first flight, but I guess then we wouldn't have had this hilarious diversion.
 
WIederling
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:04 pm

zeke wrote:
I suspect to be technically correct it is the 767-2C that has MCAS, the the tanker derived from that.


767-2C basically is a cargo plane that is not able to do airdrops or take on loads in flight.

But the Tanker is.
Strongly changing CoG in flight caused by fueling action in/out seems to have been the driver behind the KC-46 MCAS.
.. And that airframe seems to provide failsafe synthetic AoA generation as input to MCAS from the get go.

Grafting this onto the jurassic tech 737 ...
Murphy is an optimist
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:08 am

double post
Last edited by PacoMartin on Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:18 am

Well, some people would say that the critical failure of the MAX jets was not MCAS, but the decision to rely on a single sensor when multiple sensors were available.

Turkish Airlines Flight 1951 (B737-800) was a passenger flight that crashed during landing at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport, Netherlands, on 25 February 2009. The accident was caused by a chain of events when a single radio altimeter sensor failed (another radio altimeter sensor did not fail) and the plane automatically cut engine thrust resulting in a stall.

So the core source of the crash, relying on a single sensor for a life or death decision, had caused crashes in the past.
 
Flow2706
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:11 am

mxaxai wrote:
Isn't this exactly what Airbus does? At least in a family, all members are supposed to "feel" the same to the pilot. So they can fly an A321 almost exactly as they would fly an A318.

While the aircraft are designed to ‚feel‘ the same landings are different and especially A321s feel much more stable than A320s during approach (most pilots including me prefer this characteristic, even though a few other things are annoying on A321s, f.e. the inability to climb to higher levels to get above weather etc)...it similar but not identical. I guess even fly-by-wire can not compensate for things like increased inertia due to higher weights etc.
 
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zeke
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:49 am

WIederling wrote:

767-2C basically is a cargo plane that is not able to do airdrops or take on loads in flight.

But the Tanker is.
Strongly changing CoG in flight caused by fueling action in/out seems to have been the driver behind the KC-46 MCAS.
.. And that airframe seems to provide failsafe synthetic AoA generation as input to MCAS from the get go.

Grafting this onto the jurassic tech 737 ...


The tanker cannot do airdrops, and the tanker CG would be maintained within the civil certified CG band during flight by selecting where fuel is taken from or tank to tank transfers. Be a very similar cg management as using fuel as to what the A330/A340 does.

The whole point of using a base civil certified airframe for military projects is the military derivatives will not need full recertification, just the specific military changes that cannot be done via a civil STC.

Changing the CG envelope would be a significant certification undertaking for no gain.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
tommy1808
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:40 am

Flow2706 wrote:
. I guess even fly-by-wire can not compensate for things like increased inertia due to higher weights etc.


It probably could, but you would need to make everything feel like the worst case on all sub-variants to do it.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
VC-10
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:19 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
In '84 if someone said FBW was going to be used on commercial planes in the distant future, they would have been laughed out of the building.


The A310 spoilers were FBW in '84.
 
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zeke
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Re: Will MCAS systems become adopted aviation technology for any future aircraft other than the 737 Series?

Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:05 pm

VC-10 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
In '84 if someone said FBW was going to be used on commercial planes in the distant future, they would have been laughed out of the building.


The A310 spoilers were FBW in '84.


Concord was FBW and first flew in March 1969.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News

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