Vladex
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Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:21 pm

Is the wing design based strictly on considerations of lift, center gravity and load balancing ? How much is a consideration put into the engine design now that engines are getting ever bigger? Before, engines were so narrow that it probably was an after thought but now it must be the main issue. Are twins limited in that respect or can the wings be raised up in gull shape ? Just my take but I don't believe they can be raised because of the fuselage shape but lots of people believe that twins engines as such are perfect and superior and not limited . Raising up landing gear is also limited but that's another story I think.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:30 pm

still dont understand what a question. gull wing already used on A380 even for quad (which itself an interesting question comparing to A350)

for brand new plane, like A350, it can be avoided.
But for reengining, it can be useful.
I think MAX could be with gull wing and less MCAC issues, but still with grandfathering.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:32 pm

It is always a compromise. Bigger engines mean placing that part of the wing higher, but you don't want to add too much weight by making your landing gear very tall.

Given the long landing gear issue, gull wings are one design solution, and they have been used for this purpose for more than half a century before the A380.

Image
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:06 pm

Gull wings on A380 are on another level and that may be needed for future engines. Lots of people are saying that twin engines are the future but then there is no space below the wings as in 737 max. because of the short landing gear and wing design but I wonder if gull wings are possible on single decks because of gravity and load balancing because if not , then single decks have hit limits and have no future improvement possible.in efficiency. Maybe you can have shorter landing gear with gull wings but without those wings it seems the compromises and limits are too big for future engines.
Image
 
VSMUT
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:32 pm

Vladex wrote:
Gull wings on A380 are on another level and that may be needed for future engines.


Isn't it wing-droop more than actual an actual gull-wing? They straighten out and even bend upwards a bit once airborne.

Image
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:02 pm

GP7270 Diameter: 3.16 m (10.4 ft; 124 in), fan 2.96 m (9.7 ft; 117 in)
Trent 900 Diameter: 2,950 mm (116 in) fan
Trent XBW fan 3.00 m / 118" diameter,

A350
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... 0-1000.pdf
heavy:
fuselage ground clearance 2.40m (page 2)
engine naselle 0.61m 0.76m
for bank angle:
landing gear wide 12.84m
engines wide 10.5m*2

A380
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... C-A380.pdf
heavy:
fuselage ground clearance 2.34m (page 2)
Engine naselle inner 1.05m
bank angle:
outer landing gear wide 14.34m
inner engines wide 29.6m - far more compared to 21m of A350.

thats the reason for A380 gull wing i think

any spec for 748?


upd:
A345/6
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... 00_600.pdf
heavy:
fuselage ground clearance 1.99m (page 2)
Engine naselle inner 0.52m
bank angle:
landing gear wide 12.61m
inner engines wide 18.74m
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19314
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:10 pm

Vladex wrote:
Gull wings on A380 are on another level and that may be needed for future engines. Lots of people are saying that twin engines are the future but then there is no space below the wings as in 737 max. because of the short landing gear and wing design but I wonder if gull wings are possible on single decks because of gravity and load balancing because if not , then single decks have hit limits and have no future improvement possible.in efficiency. Maybe you can have shorter landing gear with gull wings but without those wings it seems the compromises and limits are too big for future engines.
Image


The 737MAX "doesn't count" in this context. No new airliner of that size would be designed so low to the ground. The only reason the new engines don't fit where they should be mounted is that the basic aircraft was designed over 50 years ago.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:27 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Vladex wrote:
Gull wings on A380 are on another level and that may be needed for future engines. Lots of people are saying that twin engines are the future but then there is no space below the wings as in 737 max. because of the short landing gear and wing design but I wonder if gull wings are possible on single decks because of gravity and load balancing because if not , then single decks have hit limits and have no future improvement possible.in efficiency. Maybe you can have shorter landing gear with gull wings but without those wings it seems the compromises and limits are too big for future engines.
Image


The 737MAX "doesn't count" in this context. No new airliner of that size would be designed so low to the ground. The only reason the new engines don't fit where they should be mounted is that the basic aircraft was designed over 50 years ago.


That's almost true except for 787 which has 737 like ground clearance and was designed 15 years ago and less than 10 years is active.
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:08 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
GP7270 Diameter: 3.16 m (10.4 ft; 124 in), fan 2.96 m (9.7 ft; 117 in)
Trent 900 Diameter: 2,950 mm (116 in) fan
Trent XBW fan 3.00 m / 118" diameter,

A350
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... 0-1000.pdf
heavy:
fuselage ground clearance 2.40m (page 2)
engine naselle 0.61m 0.76m
for bank angle:
landing gear wide 12.84m
engines wide 10.5m*2

A380
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... C-A380.pdf
heavy:
fuselage ground clearance 2.34m (page 2)
Engine naselle inner 1.05m
bank angle:
outer landing gear wide 14.34m
inner engines wide 29.6m - far more compared to 21m of A350.

thats the reason for A380 gull wing i think

any spec for 748?


upd:
A345/6
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... 00_600.pdf
heavy:
fuselage ground clearance 1.99m (page 2)
Engine naselle inner 0.52m
bank angle:
landing gear wide 12.61m
inner engines wide 18.74m


Can you clarify what you mean?

A380 has much wider fuselage and wings so it will be wider distance between engines , how does that justify gull wings?
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:23 am

you can calculate max bank angle, when plane touching one gear leg, scratching engine.
for A350
10.5m - (12.84/2) = 4.08m length for 0.76m height.
for a380 (29.6/2) - (14.32/2) = 14.8 - 7.16 = 7.64m
so inner engine must be equally higher
for A345 (18.74/2) - (12.61/2) = 9.37 - 6.3 = 3.07m
so inner engine can be placed even lower.

yes, A380 have big wing span and much wider placed engines, so its need to be placed higher to provide bank angle.

why they did this still a question.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:13 pm

Vladex wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Vladex wrote:
Gull wings on A380 are on another level and that may be needed for future engines. Lots of people are saying that twin engines are the future but then there is no space below the wings as in 737 max. because of the short landing gear and wing design but I wonder if gull wings are possible on single decks because of gravity and load balancing because if not , then single decks have hit limits and have no future improvement possible.in efficiency. Maybe you can have shorter landing gear with gull wings but without those wings it seems the compromises and limits are too big for future engines.
Image


The 737MAX "doesn't count" in this context. No new airliner of that size would be designed so low to the ground. The only reason the new engines don't fit where they should be mounted is that the basic aircraft was designed over 50 years ago.


That's almost true except for 787 which has 737 like ground clearance and was designed 15 years ago and less than 10 years is active.


The big difference is that the 787 engines fit nicely in the ideal location, and without flattened nacelles.

The engine ground clearance is still a bit more than on the 737.
- 737-800: 48-64 cm
- 787-9 - 61-79 cm
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:28 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
The big difference is that the 787 engines fit nicely in the ideal location, and without flattened nacelles.

same for 737-100
i want to see how 787 will fit ultrafan in 2025+
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:44 pm

interesting for 777x
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... 9_RevA.pdf
gear width 10.82m ( narrower A350)
engines wide 10.64*2
fuselage clearance 2.13m (7ft)
engine naselle TBD lol
(from 2017 year: The 134 in (340 cm) fan is encased in a 174 in (440 cm) nacelle, with 1.5 ft (0.46 m) of ground clearance)
for 5.23m between gear and engine it looks like 777x will be very restricted for bank angle at landing.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:41 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The big difference is that the 787 engines fit nicely in the ideal location, and without flattened nacelles.

same for 737-100
i want to see how 787 will fit ultrafan in 2025+


Assuming Airbus and RR don't do a GE90-Boeing style deal preventing it, I would expect somewhat like on the 737MAX, in front of the wings. And since the 787 is a FBW plane, it won't matter in the slightest.
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:14 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Vladex wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

The 737MAX "doesn't count" in this context. No new airliner of that size would be designed so low to the ground. The only reason the new engines don't fit where they should be mounted is that the basic aircraft was designed over 50 years ago.


That's almost true except for 787 which has 737 like ground clearance and was designed 15 years ago and less than 10 years is active.


The big difference is that the 787 engines fit nicely in the ideal location, and without flattened nacelles.

The engine ground clearance is still a bit more than on the 737.
- 737-800: 48-64 cm
- 787-9 - 61-79 cm


That's so much alike like I thought, Do you have numbers for ground clearance for all the other active jets especially A380?
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:17 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The big difference is that the 787 engines fit nicely in the ideal location, and without flattened nacelles.

same for 737-100
i want to see how 787 will fit ultrafan in 2025+

787 definitely won't do ultrafan as the early prototype is 355 cm or 70 cm more than its current engine and its ground clearance is only 61cm if that number is right.

https://www.cleansky.eu/the-uhbr-engine ... s-momentum
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:19 pm

all modern liners except A380 have about the same engine clearance, so A350 or 787, but they will face MAX issue in future.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:21 pm

Vladex wrote:
That's so much alike like I thought, Do you have numbers for ground clearance for all the other active jets especially A380?


i post a lot of links with official data, but looks like you no-reader.
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:06 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
Vladex wrote:
That's so much alike like I thought, Do you have numbers for ground clearance for all the other active jets especially A380?


i post a lot of links with official data, but looks like you no-reader.


You posted ground clearance of 777x but not of others (A350, A380) unless I am missing something.
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:17 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
all modern liners except A380 have about the same engine clearance, so A350 or 787, but they will face MAX issue in future.


787 is the 737 of wide bodies in terms of ground clearance. It hugs the ground like a turtle. It's interesting how B handicapped their two most selling jets like that but have the longest landing gear on late 757 and 777.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:22 pm

Vladex wrote:
You posted ground clearance of 777x but not of others (A350, A380) unless I am missing something.

try to look at post #6

also, for 787:
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... ps/787.pdf
fuselage ground clearance 1.68m
engine naselle 0.71-0.74m
for bank angle:
landing gear wide 9.8m

it is very interesting engines placed at different point for each version of 787
787-800 engines wide 9.73m*2
787-900 9.91m *2
787-1000 9.71m *2

788: from gear leg to engine 4.83m
 
Vladex
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Posts: 338
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:02 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
Vladex wrote:
You posted ground clearance of 777x but not of others (A350, A380) unless I am missing something.

try to look at post #6

also, for 787:
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... ps/787.pdf
fuselage ground clearance 1.68m
engine naselle 0.71-0.74m
for bank angle:
landing gear wide 9.8m

it is very interesting engines placed at different point for each version of 787
787-800 engines wide 9.73m*2
787-900 9.91m *2
787-1000 9.71m *2

788: from gear leg to engine 4.83m


If these numbers indicate ground clearance then they seem off.

A380
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... C-A380.pdf

Engine naselle inner 1.05m

A350
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... 0-1000.pdf

engine naselle 0.61m 0.76m
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:45 am

What leads you to the belief that wings with a pronounced "gull" won't work on an airplane with a single passenger deck?

Single deck high wing airplanes seem to work just fine i.e. look at the C-141 or BAe 146.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:23 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
all modern liners except A380 have about the same engine clearance, so A350 or 787, but they will face MAX issue in future.


The A350 engine ground clearance is significantly greater on average, 76-93cm compared to 61-79cm for the 787. 15cm doesn't sound like a lot but it is almost 25%.

Also the engines are larger to begin.

Vladex wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
all modern liners except A380 have about the same engine clearance, so A350 or 787, but they will face MAX issue in future.


787 is the 737 of wide bodies in terms of ground clearance. It hugs the ground like a turtle. It's interesting how B handicapped their two most selling jets like that but have the longest landing gear on late 757 and 777.


Same with the 707. Stretch potential was hampered by the short gear. Meanwhile, Douglas was busy stretching the DC-8.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:43 am

Starlionblue wrote:
The A350 engine ground clearance is significantly greater on average, 76-93cm compared to 61-79cm for the 787. 15cm doesn't sound like a lot but it is almost 25%.
.

by airbus A350 engine naselle crealance 0.76m heavy, 0.88m light
787 is very different by variant.
787-900 naselle really low, but 787-1000 higher 0.71-0.97 (RR)
because fuselage clearance for
788 =1.68-2.08m
789 = 1.75-1.85m
781 = 1.98-2.21m

looks like Boeing secure a gap for bigger engine at 787.
may be Airbus too.
this is very different from 737 issue.
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:07 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The A350 engine ground clearance is significantly greater on average, 76-93cm compared to 61-79cm for the 787. 15cm doesn't sound like a lot but it is almost 25%.
.

by airbus A350 engine naselle crealance 0.76m heavy, 0.88m light
787 is very different by variant.
787-900 naselle really low, but 787-1000 higher 0.71-0.97 (RR)
because fuselage clearance for
788 =1.68-2.08m
789 = 1.75-1.85m
781 = 1.98-2.21m

looks like Boeing secure a gap for bigger engine at 787.
may be Airbus too.
this is very different from 737 issue.


Where do you see a gap for a bigger engine on this 787 where they sag down to a man's knees ? Those numbers seem off .


Image

A350 seems somewhat higher , by people midsection
Image
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:53 pm

Vladex wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The A350 engine ground clearance is significantly greater on average, 76-93cm compared to 61-79cm for the 787. 15cm doesn't sound like a lot but it is almost 25%.
.

by airbus A350 engine naselle crealance 0.76m heavy, 0.88m light
787 is very different by variant.
787-900 naselle really low, but 787-1000 higher 0.71-0.97 (RR)
because fuselage clearance for
788 =1.68-2.08m
789 = 1.75-1.85m
781 = 1.98-2.21m

looks like Boeing secure a gap for bigger engine at 787.
may be Airbus too.
this is very different from 737 issue.


Where do you see a gap for a bigger engine on this 787 where they sag down to a man's knees ? Those numbers seem off .


Image

A350 seems somewhat higher , by people midsection
Image


Exactly!

BTW that last pic seemed a bit weird to me because VS doesn't operate the -900. Then I saw it was one of the Airbus livery planes...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Vladex
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:26 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Vladex wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
by airbus A350 engine naselle crealance 0.76m heavy, 0.88m light
787 is very different by variant.
787-900 naselle really low, but 787-1000 higher 0.71-0.97 (RR)
because fuselage clearance for
788 =1.68-2.08m
789 = 1.75-1.85m
781 = 1.98-2.21m

looks like Boeing secure a gap for bigger engine at 787.
may be Airbus too.
this is very different from 737 issue.


Where do you see a gap for a bigger engine on this 787 where they sag down to a man's knees ? Those numbers seem off .


Image

A350 seems somewhat higher , by people midsection
Image


Exactly!

BTW that last pic seemed a bit weird to me because VS doesn't operate the -900. Then I saw it was one of the Airbus livery planes...


It's hard to find A350 engine pics with people in front so I picked it from an engine order page of A350
https://www.virgin.com/news/virgin-atla ... s-350-1000
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:31 pm

Vladex wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Vladex wrote:

Where do you see a gap for a bigger engine on this 787 where they sag down to a man's knees ? Those numbers seem off .


Image

A350 seems somewhat higher , by people midsection
Image


Exactly!

BTW that last pic seemed a bit weird to me because VS doesn't operate the -900. Then I saw it was one of the Airbus livery planes...


It's hard to find A350 engine pics with people in front so I picked it from an engine order page of A350
https://www.virgin.com/news/virgin-atla ... s-350-1000


No problem. Just noticed the weirdness. :)

I can by the way confirm that the A350 cowling is rather far off the ground compared to the 787. Waist level is about right.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
WIederling
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Re: Can single deck airplanes have gull wings of A380?

Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:09 pm

All the WB Airbus types have "gull wings" *
Most pronounced on the A380 and A340 ( added weight of the outboard engines )

Design objective is a wing that does not lose an excess of span from bending up
because they were build with strait spars.
i.e. where the Airbus wings tend to be straight under flight loads and droop without lift
the Boeing items are straight on the ground and bend up in flight.

Wingtip upward displacement ( ground vs in flight ) isn't all that different.
( thought the average Airbus wing is thicker and thus intrinsically stiffer.)

exept for the A300 I'd guess. Straight spars and zero padding in the belly fairing.
A310 is similar?
Murphy is an optimist

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