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BWIAirport
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Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:29 pm

737NG Spoiler Settings

Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:49 pm

Hi everyone, this is something I've always wondered. Are spoilers 2-5 and 8-11 programmed to deploy at a higher angle upon touchdown on the 737-800 and 737-900 than they are on the -600 and -700? Does this slight change really add significant enough braking power to justify different programming/design?

Further, when the -800 and -900 decelerates to a certain point, spoilers 2-5 and 8-11 drop slightly to a position that seems identical to the fully deployed position on the -600 and -700 (see 25:35 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6GHH4GIULE&t=1686s ). Is this the de-activation of the autobrake?
Next flight: November 23 BA216 IAD-LHR A388
November 24 BA814 LHR-CPH A320

SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
 
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BasilFawlty
Posts: 877
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:23 am

Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:21 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
Are spoilers 2-5 and 8-11 programmed to deploy at a higher angle upon touchdown on the 737-800 and 737-900 than they are on the -600 and -700?

It depends if the aircraft has been fitted with SFP. The SFP package is standard on the -900ER, it’s an option on all other models (until it became standard on the -800 too a few years ago). So on the -800 and -900 without SFP it should be the same as on the -600 and -700.

BWIAirport wrote:
Does this slight change really add significant enough braking power to justify different programming/design?

In combination with several other things which work slighty different on SFP models, yes it does.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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AirKevin
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:26 pm

BWIAirport wrote:
Is this the de-activation of the autobrake?

Could be tied in with the thrust reversers, too. I'm just guessing, mind you.
Captain Kevin
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:52 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
Are spoilers 2-5 and 8-11 programmed to deploy at a higher angle upon touchdown on the 737-800 and 737-900 than they are on the -600 and -700?

It depends if the aircraft has been fitted with SFP. The SFP package is standard on the -900ER, it’s an option on all other models (until it became standard on the -800 too a few years ago). So on the -800 and -900 without SFP it should be the same as on the -600 and -700.

BWIAirport wrote:
Does this slight change really add significant enough braking power to justify different programming/design?

In combination with several other things which work slighty different on SFP models, yes it does.

Does that add weight or is it just software?
Next flight: November 23 BA216 IAD-LHR A388
November 24 BA814 LHR-CPH A320

SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
 
a320fan
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:30 am

They return back to the standard angle when decelerating through 60knots. For what purpose I don't know.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
Zeke2517
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:29 pm

Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:33 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
Are spoilers 2-5 and 8-11 programmed to deploy at a higher angle upon touchdown on the 737-800 and 737-900 than they are on the -600 and -700?

It depends if the aircraft has been fitted with SFP. The SFP package is standard on the -900ER, it’s an option on all other models (until it became standard on the -800 too a few years ago). So on the -800 and -900 without SFP it should be the same as on the -600 and -700.

BWIAirport wrote:
Does this slight change really add significant enough braking power to justify different programming/design?

In combination with several other things which work slighty different on SFP models, yes it does.



What is SFP?
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:35 am

"special field perfomance" or something like this. extra take-off perfomance mod.

http://www.sjap.nl/short-field-performa ... formation/
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:37 pm

a320fan wrote:
They return back to the standard angle when decelerating through 60knots. For what purpose I don't know.

That would normally coincide with the de-activation of the thrust reverse, as AirKevin said
Next flight: November 23 BA216 IAD-LHR A388
November 24 BA814 LHR-CPH A320

SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
 
m007j
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:15 pm

See this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1369611

Doesn't seem to be a specific purpose, just the way Boeing set up the system to operate. Note that this is independent of reverser and autobrake operation.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:05 pm

m007j wrote:
See this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1369611

Doesn't seem to be a specific purpose, just the way Boeing set up the system to operate. Note that this is independent of reverser and autobrake operation.

Thanks for the link!
Next flight: November 23 BA216 IAD-LHR A388
November 24 BA814 LHR-CPH A320

SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
 
bradyj23
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:24 am

Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:08 pm

Zeke2517 wrote:
BasilFawlty wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
Are spoilers 2-5 and 8-11 programmed to deploy at a higher angle upon touchdown on the 737-800 and 737-900 than they are on the -600 and -700?

It depends if the aircraft has been fitted with SFP. The SFP package is standard on the -900ER, it’s an option on all other models (until it became standard on the -800 too a few years ago). So on the -800 and -900 without SFP it should be the same as on the -600 and -700.

BWIAirport wrote:
Does this slight change really add significant enough braking power to justify different programming/design?

In combination with several other things which work slighty different on SFP models, yes it does.



What is SFP?


Short Field Package
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 402
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:49 am

heard from 737 pilot that different spoiller setting for different models provide commonality (same behavior in flight and runway)
 
bradyj23
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:37 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
heard from 737 pilot that different spoiller setting for different models provide commonality (same behavior in flight and runway)


The SFP has to do with runway performance and stopping distance. It isn't flight characteristics. Most of our 800's don't have it but our 900ER's do. On touchdown you can feel it slightly and the 2 types handle differently. Ever so slightly. The aircraft that have the SFP tend to (for a lack of a better description) tip backwards when the spoilers come up. This is because the spoilers deflect to a higher angle. If I remember correctly it is 60 degrees as opposed to 40 something degrees. Don't quote me on those numbers as I don't have my books in front of me. Hope this helps.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:11 pm

bradyj23 wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
heard from 737 pilot that different spoiller setting for different models provide commonality (same behavior in flight and runway)


The SFP has to do with runway performance and stopping distance. It isn't flight characteristics. Most of our 800's don't have it but our 900ER's do. On touchdown you can feel it slightly and the 2 types handle differently. Ever so slightly. The aircraft that have the SFP tend to (for a lack of a better description) tip backwards when the spoilers come up. This is because the spoilers deflect to a higher angle. If I remember correctly it is 60 degrees as opposed to 40 something degrees. Don't quote me on those numbers as I don't have my books in front of me. Hope this helps.

thank you,
i said about topic question about spoilers, and they about flight characterictic too. about SFP- i think its about flight characterictic too, thats why -900ER have approach speed less than -800 without SFP.

and for me look like different spolers settings used to set behavior of all variant to one common way.
 
m007j
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:05 pm

Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:25 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
bradyj23 wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
heard from 737 pilot that different spoiller setting for different models provide commonality (same behavior in flight and runway)


The SFP has to do with runway performance and stopping distance. It isn't flight characteristics. Most of our 800's don't have it but our 900ER's do. On touchdown you can feel it slightly and the 2 types handle differently. Ever so slightly. The aircraft that have the SFP tend to (for a lack of a better description) tip backwards when the spoilers come up. This is because the spoilers deflect to a higher angle. If I remember correctly it is 60 degrees as opposed to 40 something degrees. Don't quote me on those numbers as I don't have my books in front of me. Hope this helps.

thank you,
i said about topic question about spoilers, and they about flight characterictic too. about SFP- i think its about flight characterictic too, thats why -900ER have approach speed less than -800 without SFP.

and for me look like different spolers settings used to set behavior of all variant to one common way.


The tail skid, which is a part of the SFP package, allows slightly less margin for a tailstrike. This allows you to increase AoA on approach, which is a result of you flying a slower approach with a lower Vref. The other difference is the reduction in delay from flight idle to ground idle to select thrust reverse; it's down to 2 seconds instead of 5 on non-SFP aircraft. Thus, not only can you select reversers quicker on the ground (which reduces landing distance), you can also get away with having a higher thrust setting to maintain a higher AoA with that lower Vref on approach.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:37 pm

So no aerodynamic pips in sfp?
 
m007j
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:05 pm

Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:26 pm

If you're talking about physical changes to the airframe or engine, no. The tailskid is the only physical difference, all other enhancements are software-based. The software changes command different behavior in spoiler angle, autoslat availability, flap load relief, slat behavior (SFP 737s have their slats extend to full at flaps 25, not 5), and the reduction in flight to ground idle delay.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:05 am

thank you.
interesting compared to Airbus SHARP
viewtopic.php?t=1366049
 
Passedv1
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Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:57 pm

m007j wrote:
If you're talking about physical changes to the airframe or engine, no. The tailskid is the only physical difference, all other enhancements are software-based. The software changes command different behavior in spoiler angle, autoslat availability, flap load relief, slat behavior (SFP 737s have their slats extend to full at flaps 25, not 5), and the reduction in flight to ground idle delay.


I don't think the tail-skid is part of the SFP. All of AS 800's, 900's, and 900ER's have tail skids...not all of them are SFP's. It could be an option that AS got.
 
yeelep
Posts: 763
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:53 pm

Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:07 pm

There are two types of tailskids on the NG's. The standard one that is found on 800's, 900's. And a hydraulically actuated two position tailskid, which is an optional part of the SFP package and standard on the 900ER. You can't easily distinguish between the two as the two position unit extends for landings only and retracts shortly after touchdown.

Alaska only has the two position tailskid on their 900ER's.
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 am

Re: 737NG Spoiler Settings

Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:10 pm

Regarding the SFP. It raises those spoilers to 60 degrees. Also for our fleet;
The 737-800 and 737-8​ are​ equipped with SFP1, while​ the 737-9​ is equipped with SFP2. Both short field ​performance enhancement​ packages are identical, except that SFP2​ incorporates a two-position tailskid​ ​for landing, whereas SFP1​ presents one-position tailskid.
Enhancements are;
-Takeoff. Sealed Slats for all Takeoff flap positions. Winglet lift credit. (blended winglet)
-Landing. Tailskids as mentioned above. Increased flight spoiler deflection on ground. Reduced idle thrust delay after touchdown.

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