anshabhi
Topic Author
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Polar Routing from India to US

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:05 pm

Taking a new flight path that will save time as well as fuel, Air India will start flying to San Francisco from the national capital over the Polar region.
With the new route, the flight duration would reduce by around one-and-a-half hours and fuel savings would be in the range of 2,000 to 7,000 kilograms per flight, according to an Air India spokesperson.


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 645258.cms

Can someone please explain how will this different than the GC route or the Pacific routing that this flight often takes?

Also what would the possible flight be like, and what countries would be overflown in this polar routing?

Mind you, during Pak Airspace closure, DEL-SFO was easily taking upto 17-18 hours. Getting it down from that to 13 is huge
 
BravoOne
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:32 pm

Without looking at the specific flight plan it would be hard to say what the issues would be and I kainda doubt that they will see those kind of savings, regardless. Strongly suspect that this is driven by the availailabilty of some new ETOPS alternates that were not available in the past. I recall that some exiting ETOPS alternates had been removed in Russian airspace a couple of years ago, so perhaps they are once again being made available. 2000 to 7000 kilograms doesn't correspond to the hours quoted in the article.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:39 am

Airlines need approval for polar operations. Seems AI wasn’t approved for it, until now. Both the DGCA and FAA seem to have given approval, based on the article provided by the OP.

It’s more than just availability of ETOPS alternates. The following is a good read on the subject:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... story.html
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
anshabhi
Topic Author
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:27 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Airlines need approval for polar operations. Seems AI wasn’t approved for it, until now. Both the DGCA and FAA seem to have given approval, based on the article provided by the OP.

It’s more than just availability of ETOPS alternates. The following is a good read on the subject:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... story.html


Thanks for the link!

This image explains a bit more:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... _fig1.html

I think this is going to be one heck of an experience for the crew and pax !!
 
babastud
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Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:38 am

Air India first flight over North Pole from Delhi to San Francisco

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:35 pm

Look's like AI is about to fly DEL-SFO over the Arctic? I've herd this August 15th this will be the new routing. Is this routing both ways or one? how much time will this save? and how is this going to work with increased tensions with Pakistan and always threat of closure of air space?
 
x1234
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Re: Air India first flight over North Pole from Delhi to San Francisco

Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:58 pm

This is all about the opening up of new trans-polar flight corridors by the Russians. India & China are quite friendly with Russia and their aircraft have reduced airspace fees compared with American airlines.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 3#21a8813d

Their making DEL-SFO in 15.5 hours now. It used to route via Chinese/Japanese/North Pacific when now it routes via Kazakhstan/Northern Russia.
 
x1234
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Re: Air India first flight over North Pole from Delhi to San Francisco

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:02 pm

I've heard rumours China is working with India to open up their airspace for a direct routing from Western China into Indian airspace. This will cut the flight time down even further and bypass Pakistan. Yes the airspace between China & India in disputed territories is being opened to cut down the flight time for AI & UA.
 
x1234
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Re: Air India first flight over North Pole from Delhi to San Francisco

Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:17 pm

I just checked FR24 and the Himalayas are in the way but there is now a airway between Kathmandu Nepal to Lhasa China/Chengdu China (and the usual Kathmandu Nepal into New Delhi Indian airspace). In fact Air China has a Kathmandu to Chengdu flight and you can see the airway here:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 8#21a94758
This can also save 30 minutes to 45 minutes versus routing via Myanmar/China/Shanghai/Tokyo/SF airspace (the old Air India Pacific route). I wonder if AI will try the airway.
 
 
BravoOne
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:36 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Airlines need approval for polar operations. Seems AI wasn’t approved for it, until now. Both the DGCA and FAA seem to have given approval, based on the article provided by the OP.

It’s more than just availability of ETOPS alternates. The following is a good read on the subject:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... story.html



That article you have quoted is so very old that I would not rely on much of it and it application to this AI subject is minimal, at best.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Air India first flight over North Pole from Delhi to San Francisco

Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:53 pm

anshabhi wrote:



Those Polar routings do not exit as such anymore. I have the AI Polar Ops manual in front of me but it is not a current version, so I can't be much more help than point out my 1st reply regarding the availability of additional ETOPS alternates. I have been away from this subject for about 120 days and there has been a significant amount of new activity with the impending revision of FAA AC120-42B. You might do a little research by Googling the Cross Polar Working Group meeting minutes as they are the core organiztion that most of this route additions comes from.

The very nature of this subject requires the latest and most current ATC information and press releases are probably not where you want to be getting your information. Unfortunately the Boeing Aero pubs have been discontinued for the most part so anything with a 2001 date on it is pretty much out of date as well.

Trans Polar ops have been conducted for years now and I'm confident that AI is prepared to go forward with any new polars ops. Did they not do this some time ago from DEL to SFO/LAX?

Good luck!
 
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zeke
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Re: Air India first flight over North Pole from Delhi to San Francisco

Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:32 pm

x1234 wrote:
I've heard rumours China is working with India to open up their airspace for a direct routing from Western China into Indian airspace. This will cut the flight time down even further and bypass Pakistan. Yes the airspace between China & India in disputed territories is being opened to cut down the flight time for AI & UA.


This new route has been a high priority since 2013

Image
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
anshabhi
Topic Author
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:32 am

Check out playback of flight AI173 from Delhi to San Francisco on Flightradar24. https://fr24.com/data/flights/ai173#21b27a75

Wohooo!! Never seen anything fly straight above the north pole like this
 
BravoOne
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:52 pm

Airlines have been doing this since the early 2000's, if not before if you count operators like SAS. FWIW, Polar Ops begin at 78N.
 
anshabhi
Topic Author
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:04 pm

Not significant time savings. Above flight took 15 hours anyway
 
BravoOne
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:59 pm

My copy of the Air India Polar Operations manual is dated 02/28/2007. Are you sure AI has not been flying these ops prior to this date? I know that JET was doing some before their demise.
 
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zeke
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Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:17 am

BravoOne wrote:
My copy of the Air India Polar Operations manual is dated 02/28/2007. Are you sure AI has not been flying these ops prior to this date? I know that JET was doing some before their demise.


What aircraft types and routes would AI done polar ?

The first polar flight CX did was JFK-HKG in 1998, a 744. Also the first aircraft to land at the new HKIA.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Polar Routing from India to US

Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:35 pm

zeke wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
My copy of the Air India Polar Operations manual is dated 02/28/2007. Are you sure AI has not been flying these ops prior to this date? I know that JET was doing some before their demise.


What aircraft types and routes would AI done polar ?

The first polar flight CX did was JFK-HKG in 1998, a 744. Also the first aircraft to land at the new HKIA.



It is both a 747 and 777 supplement.

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