jerrychoo
Topic Author
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IDG maintenance service package

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:03 am

Hi I am new here and hope my first question don't appear silly. I understand that IDG repair costs is very expensive and i have heard from one airline that they actually have an service package which doesn't require them to pay anything when they experience unscheduled removal. Is there such an service package? Thanks.
 
unimproved
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:39 am

Nothing is free in life...

You're probably talking about something like power by the hour, which means you pay per hour that it's used. Maintenance, both scheduled and unscheduled, is included in that price.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:18 am

I think the main cause of failure for IDG's is improper service while in use. It's basically a transmission that takes the shaft power from the engine and regulates that to a even output to run the electrical generator. That transmission has oil in it. There is a task to check the level of the oil. To check the level you over fill the IDG and then drain it down to the proper level. Not enough oil is bad, too much oil is bad.

So I'm sure power by the hour exists for IDG's but I would bet its rather expensive.
 
extender
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:37 am

AS unimproved pointed out, PBH. You pay one way or another.
 
battlegroup62
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:48 am

Some airlines use a program whereby they have a list of components that a third party stores and makes available whenever they are needed. The system can be used by multiple airlines to share the same components so long as the inventory levels are adjusted accordingly. At my company we call this a pool parts program. The airlines pay a subscription fee to be able to use the program and select which items they want available to them.
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AA737-823
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:54 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
I think the main cause of failure for IDG's is improper service while in use. It's basically a transmission that takes the shaft power from the engine and regulates that to a even output to run the electrical generator. That transmission has oil in it. There is a task to check the level of the oil. To check the level you over fill the IDG and then drain it down to the proper level. Not enough oil is bad, too much oil is bad.

So I'm sure power by the hour exists for IDG's but I would bet its rather expensive.


Wow. There’s a lot of false info in that post:
1. No. IDG’s fail on their own.
2. That is not how you check the oil level at all.
3. That is not how you service the oil level.

Things you got right:
1. Yeah it’s basically a transmission.
2. Yeah it has oil in it.
3. Yeah too much or too little is bad. Just like any other gearbox.

But, believe it or not, licensed mechanics are actually pretty competent at knowing too much from too little.
But I see you have no confidence in our abilities.
 
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fr8mech
Posts: 7816
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:14 am

AA737-823 wrote:
Wow. There’s a lot of false info in that post:

1. No. IDG’s fail on their own.
2. That is not how you check the oil level at all.
3. That is not how you service the oil level.


Umm, he is absolutely correct, because there is no way to tell if an IDG is over-serviced.

From our B767 AMM, all others are similar:

(h) Use the pump on the oil service equipment to fill the IDG with oil, using a maximum of 40 psi (276 kPa).NOTE: When you start to put the oil into the IDG, oil could flow from the overflow drain hose. This does not show that the IDG is full.
1 Use D00520 Mobil Jet Oil II to fill the IDG.
(i) Stop pumping oil into the IDG when approximately one quart of oil flows from the overflow drain hose into the container.NOTE: The one quart (one liter) of oil does not include the oil that drained when the overflow drain hose was connected to ensure that the IDG oil level is correct.
(j) Disconnect the hose on the oil service equipment from the IDG pressure fill coupling.
(k) Install the cover on the pressure fill coupling.

CAUTION: DO NOT REMOVE THE OVERFLOW DRAIN HOSE FROM THE IDG UNTIL TWO MINUTES AFTER THE OIL FLOW HAS DECREASED TO DROPS. FAILURE TO DRAIN THE IDG CORRECTLY WILL CAUSE TOO MUCH OIL IN THE IDG. THIS CONDITION WILL CAUSE AN IMMEDIATE OVERHEAT CONDITION AND CAUSE DAMAGE TO THE IDG.

(l) When the oil from the overflow drain hose decreases to a drop, wait two minutes then remove the overflow drain hose.
(m) Install the cover on the IDG overflow drain coupling


We painted over the oil level view ports on all our IDG's years ago.

Of course, different operators have different rules, but in our operation, and apparently DALmd88's, the only proper way to check the oil level is to properly service the IDG. And the only proper way to service the IDG is to allow at least 1 quart of oil to flow out of the overflow port.
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mikeinatlanta
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: IDG maintenance service package

Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:09 pm

Guys are getting into a semantics argument over the servicing.

To answer the OP's question: Yes that does exist, but maybe not a common thing for a larger airline. An example would be when World Airways leased some power by the hour Delta MD-11s. Part of the lease conditions would have Delta absorb the costs of an IDG change. Delta even paid for tires and brakes on that contract.

This example is actually a pretty entertaining case in hind sight. World would bring an EX Delta MD-11 into Delta for an A-Check. Pretty much no matter how minor the inspection finding, the World Reps would say to change the part. Seat cushion dirty?... Change the seat kind of stuff. The low level Delta Managers and Inspection thought the World Reps were idiots with endless money. What the World Reps actually knew that the Delta guys didn't was that Delta was footing the entire bill. One time Delta presented a Non-Routine Card with a main tire having an in limits cut to the World Rep. The World Rep said to change the tire. At that moment Delta didn't have stock of an MD-11 main so they leased a wheel assembly from World to install it on a World airplane, when the old one was perfectly serviceable. The Delta guys on the floor had no idea of the contract.

This example should make it clear why this type of arrangement isn't generally a good idea. The operator has no real financial incentive to properly service and troubleshoot when the parts are free.
Aircraft Maintenance Professional since 1979.
 
Lpbri
Posts: 194
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:47 pm

On newer airplanes such as 777 or 787, the electrical page displays "Normal" or "service" for oil level, be it an IDG, BUG, or VFSG. On ETOPs and lower level checks, this is how oil levels are checked. Higher level level checks may call for you to check the sight glass, and service to full whatever the level is. On engines where the IDG is mounted on the core, it may be easier just to service it than open up the T/R's to check the glass
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:25 am

fr8mech wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
Wow. There’s a lot of false info in that post:

1. No. IDG’s fail on their own.
2. That is not how you check the oil level at all.
3. That is not how you service the oil level.


Umm, he is absolutely correct, because there is no way to tell if an IDG is over-serviced.

From our B767 AMM, all others are similar: ...



For a specific airplane, sure. Our B767 AMM have instructions that match what you have quoted more or less exactly.

But any 320 I've ever encountered uses a sight gauge.
For 777/787, it's a message on the Electrics page.

For the 7M8s, there is No over service danger, as that stand-pipes to the drain mast.

These differences matter.

Whoever posted that upthread was right about one particular aircraft at one particular operator. He should not have applied that as a blanket statement, however, as the amount of variation is not trivial.

Fr8mech wrote:
We painted over the oil level view ports on all our IDG's years ago.




Why?
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fr8mech
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:30 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Why?


We don’t want the sight glass used to determine level. We don’t have a “check” task. Basically, our maintenance program says if you need/want to check/service the IDG, you will service it per the AMM.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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jerrychoo
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:51 am

Re: IDG maintenance service package

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:29 am

What are the possible cause of unscheduled removal of IDG? Diode? Copper chelation? Any expert know what causes copper chelation? (Filter Plugging) was advised by some personnel that some additives could cause copper chelation and Diode failure. Am trying to learn more and understand more on unscheduled removal of IDG.
 
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Loran
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:37 am

jerrychoo wrote:
Hi I am new here and hope my first question don't appear silly. I understand that IDG repair costs is very expensive and i have heard from one airline that they actually have an service package which doesn't require them to pay anything when they experience unscheduled removal. Is there such an service package? Thanks.

As already mentioned above, it is called a pooling program, or power-by-the-hour. The third party maintenance provider basically knows how often components fail (based on millions of Flight Hour records from customer airlines to calculate a reliable MTBR / MTBUR) and can forecast the test/repair/overhaul cost which is then converted into a flight hour rate. The rate is depending on aircraft age, but usually frozen above 6y of age. Warranty in the earlier years allows for a discount.
The IDG is amongst the top-5 cost drivers, depending on engine type around USD 6 per FH for both engines. Only the old CRT monitors are of similar cost.

In regards to spares availability, each customer buys access to the pool of components. Depending on scope this could be something around USD 2'000-3'000 per month and aircraft (for B737NGs and A320s). Parts rotate in and out of the pool, for example one compenent failed on customer airline X, it will then be removed, repaired, then goes into the pool and waits until customer airline Y needs this spare. In addition there is usually a 'home base kit'-type of exclusive stock with the most relvenat AOG-critical components leased to the customer airline.

These programs can be quite complex, they invlove logistics, engineering and mangement services. But they offer a huge saving vs. the traditional in-house solutions where airlines need to buy millions of spares themselves and sit on these assets which hardly rotate.

Regards,
Loran
703 717 727 732-9 747 757 767 777 787 AB2/6 310 318-321 330 340 359 380 D8M D91/3/5 D1C M11 M81-90 L10 IL1/8/6/7/W/9/4 TU3/5/2 YK4/2
 
WPvsMW
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:45 am

Loran wrote:
These programs can be quite complex, they invlove logistics, engineering and mangement services. But they offer a huge saving vs. the traditional in-house solutions where airlines need to buy millions of spares themselves and sit on these assets which hardly rotate.


Loran, how is pool membership determined? Anyone can join? Only alliance members can join? In other words... what are the membership criteria, which in turn may impact the quality of the used parts to be refurbished.
 
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Loran
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:41 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Loran, how is pool membership determined? Anyone can join? Only alliance members can join? In other words... what are the membership criteria, which in turn may impact the quality of the used parts to be refurbished.

Anyone can join. The biggest maintenance providers are Lufthansa Technik (LHT), AFI/KLM and SR Technics (SRT), followed by Airbus FHS and Boeing Global Services (BGS). These are independent providers and serve any customer airline which requests such services. LHT for example serves dozens of airline competitors from Lufthansa Airlines, because LHT is considered as an independent subsidiary which needs to generate profit. So services won't be limited to certain alliances or partnerships.

There are two types of PbtH:
1) Maintenance + Pool access -> the customer airline does not own any stock
2) Maintenance only -> the customer airline owns its own stock and just needs repair services

I.e., you cannot just buy pool access, it always comes with maintenance services (->1), because the maintenance provider wants to maintain control over the repair sources for its pool spares.

In regards to your comment about quality, it could well be that a certain customer fleet is below the modification standard of the pool (it is called 'pool standard'). In such case the customer components will be modified upwards to the pool standard to harmonize the modification status, this will typically be recharged to the customer. Also, such contracts have a BER (beyond economical repair) clause, meaning upon the first shop visit of a component, if the quality of that component is low and cannot be repaired, a certain portion will be recharged to the customer. This is to protect the pool from low-quality spares which may originate from tear-down aircraft or bad repair sources.

Feel free to ask more questions, I work for one of the above mentioned companies, so I know the details :sly:

Regards,
Loran
703 717 727 732-9 747 757 767 777 787 AB2/6 310 318-321 330 340 359 380 D8M D91/3/5 D1C M11 M81-90 L10 IL1/8/6/7/W/9/4 TU3/5/2 YK4/2
 
WPvsMW
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:46 am

Thanks, very informative.
 
jerrychoo
Topic Author
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 am

Thanks Alot!
 
crobak
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:37 pm

Let me add that when those part-pool-contracts are not properly thought through it might cause problems down the road.
At my former carrier (medium sized European airline) we had a total care contract with one of the above mentioned providers. Looked good on paper but for our leased part of the fleet we had clauses within our leasing contracts which stated that no part would be older than the aircraft itself on redelivery to the lessor.
But unfortunately that's not how part pooling as per our contract worked. So those leased planes had thousands of refurbished parts in them, with enough hours and life in it as per the pooling contract. Nonetheless the lessor made us shop for new parts because those overhauled parts from the pool where older than that aircraft.
Moral of the story - talk with all relevant departments in order to avoid those f***ups :D
 
Apprentice
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:25 am

Frenchmen wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Why?


We don’t want the sight glass used to determine level. We don’t have a “check” task. Basically, our maintenance program says if you need/want to check/service the IDG, you will service it per the AMM.


Not a mechanics took this decision
. If IDG is serviced well it is in Green range, re-serviced may cause: lost of time and/or over service or IDG and IDG US . Some times, when a/c arrives out of schedule, mechanic lost time looking for refill device and 30 minutes Delta time will expired. No to many use to start eng for idg check after time had expired by 10, 15 minutes.
When not sight glass, Oil is wasted.
I'am not so smart and think that aglass was positioned there by someone smarter me, an I respect his decision

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Loran
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Re: IDG maintenance service package

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:54 pm

crobak wrote:
Let me add that when those part-pool-contracts are not properly thought through it might cause problems down the road.
At my former carrier (medium sized European airline) we had a total care contract with one of the above mentioned providers. Looked good on paper but for our leased part of the fleet we had clauses within our leasing contracts which stated that no part would be older than the aircraft itself on redelivery to the lessor.
But unfortunately that's not how part pooling as per our contract worked. So those leased planes had thousands of refurbished parts in them, with enough hours and life in it as per the pooling contract. Nonetheless the lessor made us shop for new parts because those overhauled parts from the pool where older than that aircraft.
Moral of the story - talk with all relevant departments in order to avoid those f***ups :D

You are absolutely right, since a couple of years however the contracts cater for end of lease returns. The pooling provider contracts now mostly have a clause which says no component shall be older than 110% of the airplane age, etc. If this is not fulfilled, the provider will assist to swap components. Sometimes this is a binding commitment, sometimes it is upon availability.

Regards,
Loran
703 717 727 732-9 747 757 767 777 787 AB2/6 310 318-321 330 340 359 380 D8M D91/3/5 D1C M11 M81-90 L10 IL1/8/6/7/W/9/4 TU3/5/2 YK4/2

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