User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5689
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:54 am

It does seem like different airlines tend to have varying standards for de-icing their aircraft. With U.S. carriers, the airline that seems to the most generous about de-icing is WN, being the only airline with de-icing equipment in MCO and TPA. AA is somewhere in the middle as far as U.S. carriers. DL and UA seem to be more strict; at PHX while DL has deicing equipment it is rarely used even in cold snaps, with DL preferring to sun-thaw their aircraft while WN and AA are de-icing. UA does not have any de-icing equipment at PHX.

Has anyone noticed the differences in de-icing standards between airlines?
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19393
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:56 am

While there are some detail exceptions, the basic rule is that the aircraft shall be clear of snow and ice. So the "standard" is the same for everyone.

However, operations differ. For example, route structure can play a part. The longer the flight, the more the fuel is cold soaked. Then you land in a humid location and get ice on the wings, even in the tropics. In other words, it can make a difference if most of the flights are 2 hours or 6 hours.

BTW while the application operation looks the same, de-icing is not the same as anti-icing.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3718
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:23 am

Presence of de-icing trucks says little or nothing about the standards of their operations. EAL had two de-icing trucks in SJU. It’s the quality of training for crews, flight and ground, and cultural discipline to adhere to standards that matter. It’s been a very long time since a US carrier had an accident due to improper de-icing / anti-icing.

GF
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3606
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:07 pm

Regarding standards, every year about his time as fall approaches, the FAA publishes a deicing standards guidance manual that describes various makes and application standards for operators use. The operator inturn uses this to compile and publish their own deicing guidance for both flight crews and ground applicator use. This is submtted to the FAA for approval and thus become the standards for following winter season.

Some operators deice at the gates while others have a dedicated deice ramp with special drains etc to enahnce the process. SLC is a case in point. You hold at the gate until your number is called, taxi to the deicing ramp and the process begins. It is a time critical event that is adhered to by both crews and ground applicators.

As others have said there is little tolerance for any contamination prior to take off and I'm confident that Delta and SWA are using the same standards. At the completion of the deicing/antiicing the ground crew will report the times taken for the application and usually the gallons and type of fluid used as this helps the crew determine the extent of the procedure. The sun works just fine, assuming time is not a factor and build up is minimal.

FWIW deicing/antiicing is very expensive. The cost to do a wide body and easily exceed $,1000 per application and if your going to have your corporate jet deiced it can be well in excess of that number. I was blown away when we had a privately owned 757 done at SLC and it cost 1,500. Ouch!

Its not uncommon to see every first morning flight out of SLC get deiced during the winter even with clear, no pricip sky conditions simply due to frost buildup.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3718
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:29 pm

I did a C-5 in STR, IIRC, well into 5 digits, $25,000 sounds familiar.

GF
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3606
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:57 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I did a C-5 in STR, IIRC, well into 5 digits, $25,000 sounds familiar.

GF



Thanks, as I also realized my numbers were missing that extra 0. Make that $15,000, not $1,500:) Nohing is that cheap in the aviation world!
Delta had a "special" for non DL wide body aircraft that was around $16,000. A real steel at the time.
 
Nicoeddf
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:34 pm

Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3606
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:50 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.



How many gallons of deicing fluid do you think it takes for a C5 or a 747? I signed the FBO bill so I'm going to go by the facts regarding the 757 charges. Can't imagine what you would get for $500?
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3606
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:08 pm

This is a copy of the reference handbook I spoke of in my earlier post.

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviatio ... Tables.pdf

As you can see there is a lot more to this process than meets the eye.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3132
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:11 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.



How many gallons of deicing fluid do you think it takes for a C5 or a 747? I signed the FBO bill so I'm going to go by the facts regarding the 757 charges. Can't imagine what you would get for $500?


Exactly, I used to fly a PA-31, and it was generally more than $1000 USD to de-ice a piston twin.
From my cold, dead hands
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3242
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:01 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.

I’d love to know where you’ve seen those numbers. We spray our aircraft in house and the fluid costs I’ve seen would knock your socks off.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3718
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:04 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.


Try de-icing a C-5 covered in 24 hours of freezing fog and drizzle.

GF
 
Nicoeddf
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:27 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.


Try de-icing a C-5 covered in 24 hours of freezing fog and drizzle.

GF


Hmm,...maybe my numbers are off. I check again.

But to be fair, your scenario isn't the standard de-icing. Standard would be wings and stabilizer plus snow removal on the airframe prior first flight in the morning.

Edit: Hmm, the result of a random google search

" De-Icing Summary: Actual de-icing costs vary depending on the amount of fluid required. The average de-icing cost for a small jet is 1,000 EUR per application. De-icing larger aircraft can cost over 10,000 EUR."

https://www.privatefly.com/privatejet-s ... -jets.html
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3606
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:28 pm

You have to chuckle when you repsond to a poster with a known fact based on experience and then he goes to the trouble of trying to disprove what have just told them. I give up but as a least resort suggest he call the likes of UAL at say PDX and ask him how much to deice his BBJ.
 
FGITD
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:16 pm

BravoOne wrote:
You have to chuckle when you repsond to a poster with a known fact based on experience and then he goes to the trouble of trying to disprove what have just told them. I give up but as a least resort suggest he call the likes of UAL at say PDX and ask him how much to deice his BBJ.


Such is the downside to an open forum. The 75% who have never piloted /worked an airplane will tell the 25% who have that they have no idea what they're talking about.

I've been on both sides of the deicing equation, the one spraying the plane and the one collecting the invoices from the deicing provider. (Thankfully never been the one opening the checkbook)

Get a nice deicing during active precipitation, and it really racks up very quickly.

To answer the op, it's a matter of airline operational preferences. Some will take the hit, and put a couple deicing trucks in a traditionally non-deicing station just in case. Others will accept the risk of possibly having to delay or cancel flights due to being unable to deice.

This is also why ground handling companies tend to be the biggest deicing providers. When you're the only one with a truck and everyone needs it, you can make a fortune in very little time.


(Though reality tells me that in that event, the one truck would be out of service, as they always are)
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3606
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:31 pm

FGITD wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
You have to chuckle when you repsond to a poster with a known fact based on experience and then he goes to the trouble of trying to disprove what have just told them. I give up but as a least resort suggest he call the likes of UAL at say PDX and ask him how much to deice his BBJ.


Such is the downside to an open forum. The 75% who have never piloted /worked an airplane will tell the 25% who have that they have no idea what they're talking about.

I've been on both sides of the deicing equation, the one spraying the plane and the one collecting the invoices from the deicing provider. (Thankfully never been the one opening the checkbook)

Get a nice deicing during active precipitation, and it really racks up very quickly.

To answer the op, it's a matter of airline operational preferences. Some will take the hit, and put a couple deicing trucks in a traditionally non-deicing station just in case. Others will accept the risk of possibly having to delay or cancel flights due to being unable to deice.

This is also why ground handling companies tend to be the biggest deicing providers. When you're the only one with a truck and everyone needs it, you can make a fortune in very little time.


(Though reality tells me that in that event, the one truck would be out of service, as they always are)


I have been in PDX on two occasions where they ran out of fluid on the airport with freezing rain either active or in the immediate forecast. Utter chaos!
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:24 am

What is the wholesale rate for aviation quality glycol these days? I have vague memories of a buck a gallon when I was manning the nozzle.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 2150
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:07 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.


Dropped about $29,000 on a 727 one night in RFD circa 2013. My credit card had a $30,000 limit and got declined because I had spent $6,000 a couple days prior on de-ice. We had nearly 10" of snow on the plane. Most I recall spending on a bizjet was about $2700 on a Falcon 20 we couldn't get hangar space for in MCI. It was coated in ice from an ice storm. FBO's typically charge a bit more, I'm sure at big airline operations it's a lot less. It's still an expensive but necessary ordeal.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1876
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:17 am

Or do like they do in Russia.

[MEDIA=youtube]5GIU94dg1ek[/MEDIA]

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3595
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:24 pm

tb727 wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.


Dropped about $29,000 on a 727 one night in RFD circa 2013. My credit card had a $30,000 limit and got declined because I had spent $6,000 a couple days prior on de-ice. We had nearly 10" of snow on the plane. Most I recall spending on a bizjet was about $2700 on a Falcon 20 we couldn't get hangar space for in MCI. It was coated in ice from an ice storm. FBO's typically charge a bit more, I'm sure at big airline operations it's a lot less. It's still an expensive but necessary ordeal.


With 10in of snow our deicing provider here has a couple of Elephant Betas that have air blowers on them. So they will start by blowing the snow off, then they will spray with hot water, and then with type 1 fluid diluted according to OAT. Finally if it is snowing they will spray with type 11 for some holdover time.
We have six departures a day, and deice at least one a day for six months, and have signed a deal with the agent where we pay a fixed sum per departure, so they pay for the fluid, so they use less!!

But after 30 years on cold weather stations I find that there are so many ways to get the same result.
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 2150
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

Re: Airline de-icing standards

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:52 am

Tristarsteve wrote:
tb727 wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Not sure about the five digit. All numbers I have seen are around the range of 500 - 2500 USD, depending on A/C size. And that, quite frankly, sounds more reasonable for a single application than 25.000.


Dropped about $29,000 on a 727 one night in RFD circa 2013. My credit card had a $30,000 limit and got declined because I had spent $6,000 a couple days prior on de-ice. We had nearly 10" of snow on the plane. Most I recall spending on a bizjet was about $2700 on a Falcon 20 we couldn't get hangar space for in MCI. It was coated in ice from an ice storm. FBO's typically charge a bit more, I'm sure at big airline operations it's a lot less. It's still an expensive but necessary ordeal.


With 10in of snow our deicing provider here has a couple of Elephant Betas that have air blowers on them. So they will start by blowing the snow off, then they will spray with hot water, and then with type 1 fluid diluted according to OAT. Finally if it is snowing they will spray with type 11 for some holdover time.
We have six departures a day, and deice at least one a day for six months, and have signed a deal with the agent where we pay a fixed sum per departure, so they pay for the fluid, so they use less!!

But after 30 years on cold weather stations I find that there are so many ways to get the same result.


I agree that's a better way, they didn't have the blowers though. Company just wanted the snow off, Ford was paying for it so it didn't matter and wanted us out of there to pick up their tailgates in MCI. If it was up to me, I would have at least broomed as much of it off as I could!
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: n92r03 and 27 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos