timh4000
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Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:08 am

Watching a YouTube video, if I can find it I'll link it, but a A350 with 2 in the cockpit plus a camera guy and they were at FL410. No one was wearing a mask. Looking for clarification on the rule about using the 02 above 40kft.
 
timh4000
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:29 am

Not the same one, but here's one with the pilot and the co pilot doing the filming. You can tell by his voice the co pilot isn't wearing it either
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:47 am

timh4000 wrote:
Not the same one, but here's one with the pilot and the co pilot doing the filming. You can tell by his voice the co pilot isn't wearing it either

What am I supposed to be looking at.
Captain Kevin
 
aeropix
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:51 am

The rules are different in counties outside of the USA. For example I have flown all the way up to FL430 without either pilot wearing the mask, because we have quick donning masks and they are always set to 100% and that's the rule for my airline and country of registration. So the answer to your question is "it depends".

As a side note, I remember riding jumpseat as a young private pilot on European carriers and watching them accelerate to 320kts at 5000ft, which is perfectly allowed overseas but I didn't realize it at the time and I was terrified for the flight crew thinking "they are soooo busted!". I only learned much later on that the rules are different in different places and at different carriers.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:19 am

timh4000 wrote:
Watching a YouTube video, if I can find it I'll link it, but a A350 with 2 in the cockpit plus a camera guy and they were at FL410. No one was wearing a mask. Looking for clarification on the rule about using the 02 above 40kft.


As aeropix says, regulations vary. At my airline, we are required to wear the O2 mask above FL400, except if the mask is quick donning and at immediate readiness. Which our masks are. Hence we do not actually need to wear the mask. You can put the thing on in less than 10 seconds anyway.

On a related note, our newer planes have automatic emergency descent.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:28 am

Starlionblue wrote:
On a related note, our newer planes have automatic emergency descent.


how it works? any time "asleep button" not pushed in some time?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:35 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
On a related note, our newer planes have automatic emergency descent.


how it works? any time "asleep button" not pushed in some time?


If the cabin pressure hits certain limits, and there is no pilot reaction within 15 seconds, the aircraft will automatically descend to 10000 feet or minimum safe altitude. Including use of speedbrake. It will even automatically react to TCAS RA on the way down.

The automatic emergency descent function can also be activated by the pilots.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/a350-1000-features-automated-rapid-descent-capabilit-443509/

There is no "asleep button". :)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:43 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
On a related note, our newer planes have automatic emergency descent.


how it works? any time "asleep button" not pushed in some time?


If the cabin pressure hits certain limits, and there is no pilot reaction within 15 seconds, the aircraft will automatically descend to 10000 feet or minimum safe altitude. Including use of speedbrake. It will even automatically react to TCAS RA on the way down.

The automatic emergency descent function can also be activated by the pilots.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/a350-1000-features-automated-rapid-descent-capabilit-443509/

There is no "asleep button". :)

i dont remeber how it calls - "asleep alarm" for pilot needed to do some action. even trains have this. I remeber video about A330 with shown this. may be not special button, but i talk about result.

ia there are special squawk code for this descent? for ATC, or plane can hit somebody during descent (i dont think TCAS alone will be enought)?

too bad that stupid Challanger this year not have this option.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:22 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:

how it works? any time "asleep button" not pushed in some time?


If the cabin pressure hits certain limits, and there is no pilot reaction within 15 seconds, the aircraft will automatically descend to 10000 feet or minimum safe altitude. Including use of speedbrake. It will even automatically react to TCAS RA on the way down.

The automatic emergency descent function can also be activated by the pilots.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/a350-1000-features-automated-rapid-descent-capabilit-443509/

There is no "asleep button". :)

i dont remeber how it calls - "asleep alarm" for pilot needed to do some action. even trains have this. I remeber video about A330 with shown this. may be not special button, but i talk about result.

ia there are special squawk code for this descent? for ATC, or plane can hit somebody during descent (i dont think TCAS alone will be enought)?

too bad that stupid Challanger this year not have this option.


Squawk code 7700 is set automatically.

"TCAS alone" is enough (if both aircraft follow the RA commands). And it isn't like any other aircraft would know that a plane is squawking 7700.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
kalvado
Posts: 2014
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:32 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
On a related note, our newer planes have automatic emergency descent.


how it works? any time "asleep button" not pushed in some time?


If the cabin pressure hits certain limits, and there is no pilot reaction within 15 seconds, the aircraft will automatically descend to 10000 feet or minimum safe altitude. Including use of speedbrake. It will even automatically react to TCAS RA on the way down.

The automatic emergency descent function can also be activated by the pilots.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/a350-1000-features-automated-rapid-descent-capabilit-443509/

There is no "asleep button". :)

How minimum safe altitude is defined? Especially in mountain regions? radio altimeter alone, even if it works at required above ground level, may not be good enough... Something with GPS and pre-loaded map?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:41 am

kalvado wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:

how it works? any time "asleep button" not pushed in some time?


If the cabin pressure hits certain limits, and there is no pilot reaction within 15 seconds, the aircraft will automatically descend to 10000 feet or minimum safe altitude. Including use of speedbrake. It will even automatically react to TCAS RA on the way down.

The automatic emergency descent function can also be activated by the pilots.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/a350-1000-features-automated-rapid-descent-capabilit-443509/

There is no "asleep button". :)

How minimum safe altitude is defined? Especially in mountain regions? radio altimeter alone, even if it works at required above ground level, may not be good enough... Something with GPS and pre-loaded map?


Radio Altimeter is only used to 2500 feet so certainly not that.

Current MORA is the reference. GPIRS position together with database,
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
timh4000
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:51 pm

AirKevin wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
Not the same one, but here's one with the pilot and the co pilot doing the filming. You can tell by his voice the co pilot isn't wearing it either

What am I supposed to be looking at.

https://youtu.be/hKpQe5-CMoQ
 
timh4000
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:01 pm

Thanks for the clarification guys. I'm thinking there's no way they would be filming themselves busting the SOP rules like that.

Is the a350-1000 the only plane that will do an auto decent?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:09 pm

Most of the bizjets have it, now. Read Part 91.211 for the FAA rules. I was on a committee trying to change the F410 rule to be more in line with the rest of aviation. For example, Concorde crews didn’t wear O2 masks at cruise, in the US they’d have to above F410.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:37 pm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1423309
not a challenger, its a Citation this year.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:03 pm

timh4000 wrote:
Thanks for the clarification guys. I'm thinking there's no way they would be filming themselves busting the SOP rules like that.

Is the a350-1000 the only plane that will do an auto decent?


The system is being retrofitted on A350-900s, and I assume going in the new ones. I don't know of any other airliners with such a system.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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zeke
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:22 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
For example, Concorde crews didn’t wear O2 masks at cruise, in the US they’d have to above F410.


It wouldn’t matter at FL600, without a pressure suit they would not be able to breathe.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:09 am

Well, you’re right but the US rule doesn’t care—if the aircraft is above F410, one pilot has to wear the mask. Rather silly, especially if you look at the stats on depressurization events, very rare.

GF
 
timh4000
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:33 am

So is it u.s. carriers or just over the u.s.? With black box and voice recorder I imagine it would be hard to get away without someone wearing one. Or do they and it's a rule not strictly followed?

I would imagine that pilots would not be requesting fl400 or above and it's assigned to them? That would be my thought as a pilot, fl390 is good lol.

Lastly in a depressurization event, at fl39 it. Happens, how much time saving at fl400? Or 420 for that matter. I don't understand the difference which seems minimal from fl390 or am I wrong about that?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:04 pm

It’s a US regulation applying to US aircraft, not carriers. FAR 91.211 says above F410, not F400. The problem is, as even the FAA admits privately, widely ignored in the aviation community where it most applies—corporate jets as few airliners fly at F410 let alone at 430-510. Stats show the rarity of rapid depressurization events are close to 10E-8. Most of the modern jets under the F450 and F510certification have never had a rapid depressurization that allowed the cabin to altitude to exceed F240. I heard that the two ACM in a Global are from the A320, so you can imagine the air flow in the smaller cabin.

Blow a window on the test, the crew has something like 15 seconds to react, initiate descent and then reach F100 in 4 minutes. The cabin doesn’t instantly or even quickly reach ambient.

It’s a pretty hard rule to enforce outside of peer pressure. And, yes, many of us avoid long periods above F410 out of guilty conscience of not wearing the mask. The other issue is quick donning masks are uncomfortable, are designed for emergency use not for 6-8 hours at a time, and breathing dry O2 has health concerns. The FAA needs to wake up on the rule, but the CAMI keeps fighting them.

Probably not a lot of time difference, the rate is just starting to build between 410 and 390.

GF
 
Yikes!
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:25 am

Was on the flight deck of Concorde passing FL580 with only one pilot at the controls (the other, indisposed). Nobody, including Flt Eng on O2.

Their attitude? If we lose pressurization, we're all dead anyway. So why bother.
 
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zeke
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:46 am

Yikes! wrote:
Was on the flight deck of Concorde passing FL580 with only one pilot at the controls (the other, indisposed). Nobody, including Flt Eng on O2.

Their attitude? If we lose pressurization, we're all dead anyway. So why bother.


The human body cannot breathe oxygen at that level on an oxygen mask. You have to have a pressure suit.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Clarification of 02 use by pilots above FL400

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:40 pm

Again, certification does NOT account for the plane becoming ambient pressure near instantaneously. It only protects for the case of a failed outflow valve going open, a window failing, lose of a pack, NOT explosive decompression where the cabin goes ambient in seconds. The emergency descent plan is to prevent the cabin from exceeding F250.

GF

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