Armadillo1
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external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:03 am

is there any modern examples when crew ask ground services to spread water for cooling wheels?
 
zanl188
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:56 am

Off hand, I’d think water a bad idea for cooling brakes. Fans on the other hand....
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Armadillo1
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:20 am

zanl188 wrote:
Off hand, I’d think water a bad idea for cooling brakes. Fans on the other hand....

what about rain and puddles?
 
bradyj23
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:57 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
is there any modern examples when crew ask ground services to spread water for cooling wheels?


No. You can shock cool brakes by pouring water on them. Which can cause them to warp or crack. You use fans.

Puddles don’t pose a problem as the brakes are up in the wheel hubs and a puddle would splash only a minute amount of water towards the brakes.
 
Lpbri
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:44 pm

PCA hose works best
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:29 pm

Water not necessarily, but I’ve used external fans blowing air onto brakes. We used it when flying to hot pieces eg. Manila on the A330
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
Armadillo1
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:00 pm

i've seen somewhere here post with 747 landing with pilot explain to pax he ask firefighters to cool wheels

also, i know about this topic:
https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-525817.html
 
Woodreau
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:40 pm

We just use brake fans. Either the installed model. Or on planes that don’t have them external fans. They look like the plane has been booted.
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nws2002
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:29 pm

Lpbri wrote:
PCA hose works best


Yes! This is what we do with the A320s that don't have brake cooling fans.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:35 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
i've seen somewhere here post with 747 landing with pilot explain to pax he ask firefighters to cool wheels

also, i know about this topic:
https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-525817.html


Hmmm... seems like from that thread, using water may have occasionally happened "back in the day" but overwhelmingly the consensus there is the same as here (ie: "DON'T DO IT). ...except one of the posts mentioned using a fine mist.

I suspect if said 747 pilot called the firefighters after landing, there were must have been some pretty serious things going on down there, beyond hot brakes. If the fire department was involved, no doubt the brakes were scrapped along with some tires, and who knows what else.
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
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rjsampson
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:36 pm

rjsampson wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
i've seen somewhere here post with 747 landing with pilot explain to pax he ask firefighters to cool wheels

also, i know about this topic:
https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-525817.html


Hmmm... seems like from that thread, using water may have occasionally happened "back in the day" but overwhelmingly the consensus there is the same as here (ie: "DON'T DO IT). ...except one of the posts mentioned using a fine mist.

I suspect if said 747 pilot called the firefighters after landing, there were far more serious things going on down there than hot brakes. If the fire department was involved, no doubt the brakes were scrapped along with some tires, and who knows what else.
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
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DocLightning
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:28 am

https://twitter.com/aviknowledge/status ... 9663667203

Here is an example of brake cooling fans.
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Max Q
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:55 am

We didn’t have any brake temperature concerns on the old 727


Since we didn’t have any brake temperature gauges
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longhauler
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:31 am

Max Q wrote:
We didn’t have any brake temperature concerns on the old 727


Since we didn’t have any brake temperature gauges


Funny you should mention the 727. Many (MANY!) years ago when an A300 F/O, I used to do a YYZ-ACA-YYZ turn. We always arrived in ACA at the same time as a Mexicana 727. I am not sure what's its missions had been, but at about 1400 I bet it had done many multiple stops by that time.

During the turn a large water bowser was placed under the wings and the (steel) brakes were flushed with water. The steam was incredible, rising over a hundred feet! This was after MX had lost a 727 due to a wheel well fire. I guess this was the solution. It seemed to work.
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Max Q
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:19 pm

longhauler wrote:
Max Q wrote:
We didn’t have any brake temperature concerns on the old 727


Since we didn’t have any brake temperature gauges


Funny you should mention the 727. Many (MANY!) years ago when an A300 F/O, I used to do a YYZ-ACA-YYZ turn. We always arrived in ACA at the same time as a Mexicana 727. I am not sure what's its missions had been, but at about 1400 I bet it had done many multiple stops by that time.

During the turn a large water bowser was placed under the wings and the (steel) brakes were flushed with water. The steam was incredible, rising over a hundred feet! This was after MX had lost a 727 due to a wheel well fire. I guess this was the solution. It seemed to work.



That is interesting lhauler, you wouldn’t think that would be beneficial for the brake
structure in light of previous comments


I think that Mexicana 727 had a tire explode in the main gear well
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tb727
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:58 pm

Max Q wrote:
We didn’t have any brake temperature concerns on the old 727


Since we didn’t have any brake temperature gauges


No but there was a chart for it, like everything else! lol
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longhauler
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:18 am

Max Q wrote:

That is interesting lhauler, you wouldn’t think that would be beneficial for the brake
structure in light of previous comments



My guess is that it had to do with the brakes themselves. I remember the Captain commenting that it was an easy fix for an old problem. Then he looked at me and said, “You’re going left seat on the A310 aren’t you?” When I said I was, he commented, “you sure can’t do that with carbon brakes”. (The A310 was the first in our fleet with carbon brakes. The 747s, DC-10s and the A300s in our fleet all had steel brakes).

And that’s the crux. While carbon brakes are far far more effective than steel brakes, there are limitations.

Fast forward 20 years and I am doing a CZM turn in an A321 with one brake temp gauge MEL’ed inop. Per the MEL we had to wait 1:40 on the ground. When I asked our maintenance control if we could use a ground cool air cart to cool the brake, as the MEL did state with brake fans, we could reduce the time to about 45 minutes.

Our aircraft was not brake fan equipped. And we received an emphatic datalink that under no circumstances could we do anything to the brakes other than natural cooling. Nothing. So I agree with the above sentiment, with today’s carbon brakes, little can be done for cooling.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Max Q
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:10 am

tb727 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
We didn’t have any brake temperature concerns on the old 727


Since we didn’t have any brake temperature gauges


No but there was a chart for it, like everything else! lol



That’s right, good memory TB, I don’t think
we ever had any brake cooling concerns



One other thing, those 727 brakes were
incredibly powerful

I remember landing in EWR on 29 in the winter, there’d been recent heavy snow and it was the only open runway


The aircraft ahead of us reported ‘poor braking’ on rollout but managed to stop it
before the end (not a 727)


I was in the right seat and it was my leg, the Ca and I discussed the situation and came up with a plan


After touchdown I would immediately apply maximum braking, if it wasn’t effective we would immediately go around


So that’s what we did, after landing I got on the brakes like I’ve never done before or since, delaying reverse for a moment to keep the go around option available


It felt like we had run into a wall, like we’d just caught a wire on a carrier landing, by the time I deployed reverse we had already
got down to taxi speed, we used less than half of that short runway


It was incredibly impressive, to all three of us in the cockpit, not so much for the passengers for whom it was almost violent but it showed how capable that aircraft was


Like everything about the 72, it was just a pilots airplane
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
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rjsampson
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:52 pm

Sadly, it's been years since I've seen a 72 on the ramp and never will again. One thing I distinctly remember though: For a NB: The bogies on the main gear looked HUGE to me, compared to anything else (or maybe it's hazy memory). Was I just seeing things?

If not, do/have any other NB jetliners have/had such large single-axle bogies?
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:36 am

rjsampson wrote:
Sadly, it's been years since I've seen a 72 on the ramp and never will again. One thing I distinctly remember though: For a NB: The bogies on the main gear looked HUGE to me, compared to anything else (or maybe it's hazy memory). Was I just seeing things?

If not, do/have any other NB jetliners have/had such large single-axle bogies?


If hazy memory serves, the weight on each main wheel of the 727 was right up there with a 777.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Max Q
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:01 am

Starlionblue wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
Sadly, it's been years since I've seen a 72 on the ramp and never will again. One thing I distinctly remember though: For a NB: The bogies on the main gear looked HUGE to me, compared to anything else (or maybe it's hazy memory). Was I just seeing things?

If not, do/have any other NB jetliners have/had such large single-axle bogies?


If hazy memory serves, the weight on each main wheel of the 727 was right up there with a 777.



And more than a 747, you don’t want to take any shortcuts taxiing, if you end up in the grass even Patroni won’t get you out


As one of our Captains found out on a power back, he got rolling a bit too fast in reverse, not wanting to use brakes and have it sit on its tail he canceled reverse and applied forward thrust but it was too late and they rolled into the grass


Took a while to dig them out
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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shamrock137
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:16 pm

nws2002 wrote:
Lpbri wrote:
PCA hose works best


Yes! This is what we do with the A320s that don't have brake cooling fans.


Interesting, A previous operator discouraged this because they were finding it was causing uneven cooling and possible warping on the brakes/hubs. I think some of this was from people putting the hoses on the front or top of the gear, instead of around the hub similar to the brake fan so the air was only hitting one side.
Time to spare? Go by air!
 
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HAWK21M
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:19 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
is there any modern examples when crew ask ground services to spread water for cooling wheels?

Some russian Anhedral aircraft do use steam to cool brakes
Water would be a no obviously as it could cause shock cooling
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Armadillo1
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:14 am

HAWK21M wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
is there any modern examples when crew ask ground services to spread water for cooling wheels?

Some russian Anhedral aircraft do use steam to cool brakes
Water would be a no obviously as it could cause shock cooling

can you explain what do you mean?

i'm russian and can't understand
 
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rjsampson
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:28 pm

Max Q wrote:

One other thing, those 727 brakes were
incredibly powerful

The aircraft ahead of us reported ‘poor braking’ on rollout but managed to stop it
before the end (not a 727)

after landing I got on the brakes like I’ve never done before or since,

It felt like we had run into a wall, like we’d just caught a wire on a carrier landing



That's an exciting memory Max, thank you for sharing! I certainly see why. I asked earlier in this thread if any other narrow-body had such large single-axle landing gear. Finally did some research, and it's a resounding NO. Those 727 tires were HUGE. At a 32 inch diameter, that's 2 inches larger than next largest (A321), Tire width at 11.5'; HOLY COW. That's 30-45% wider than any other narrowbody's tire. No wonder the 72 stopped a spooked racehorse.

I cannot imagine what that was like for your passengers!

[Pretty cool source: https://www.bridgestone.com/products/sp ... ations.pdf]
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
Armadillo1
Topic Author
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:31 pm

just for info:

Tu-154, Yak-42: KT-141 wheel 930*305mm - with triple-bogie for 154.

same task - rough second-tier airfield.

also your link shown A321 wheel as 1270x455
 
Max Q
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:13 am

rjsampson wrote:
Max Q wrote:

One other thing, those 727 brakes were
incredibly powerful

The aircraft ahead of us reported ‘poor braking’ on rollout but managed to stop it
before the end (not a 727)

after landing I got on the brakes like I’ve never done before or since,

It felt like we had run into a wall, like we’d just caught a wire on a carrier landing



That's an exciting memory Max, thank you for sharing! I certainly see why. I asked earlier in this thread if any other narrow-body had such large single-axle landing gear. Finally did some research, and it's a resounding NO. Those 727 tires were HUGE. At a 32 inch diameter, that's 2 inches larger than next largest (A321), Tire width at 11.5'; HOLY COW. That's 30-45% wider than any other narrowbody's tire. No wonder the 72 stopped a spooked racehorse.

I cannot imagine what that was like for your passengers!

[Pretty cool source: https://www.bridgestone.com/products/sp ... ations.pdf]



Best wishes RJ
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
qblue
Posts: 140
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:07 pm

This is according to Boeing

HOT BRAKES
Normal cooling: Move aircraft to a suitable location and allow brakes to cool on their own.
Water mist: Can be deployed from turret or hand line.
Fans: Placing fans may place firefighters very close to the hazard zone.
WHEEL FIRE
Apply large amounts of water initially with turrets. Transition to hand line application to continue and
maintain a cooling effect.
Wheels are equipped with fusible plugs designed to melt and deflate the tire when the
temperature is excessive.
 
n92r03
Posts: 496
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Re: external cooling for brakes on landing

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:53 pm

I appreciate the 727 stories, keep them coming.
Back on topic, everything you want to know about wheels and tires (and more) can be found here: https://aerosavvy.com/aircraft-wheels/

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