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HAWK21M
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Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:15 am

All Airside personnell, including Maintenance and GSE operators now need to undergo a random Breath Analyser test via an alcosensor device.
Also random spotchecks by regulator and Airports authority can be carried ou
This is a welcome move towards increasing safety.
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OB1504
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:11 pm

Virtually every company at my airport has a policy that they can conduct random drug and alcohol tests.

Do you mean that employees have to do one all the time now? What airport is this?
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:36 pm

It’s been this way at least a decade here, probably more. Random drug & alcohol, is just that random. There is “for cause” testing, which requires 2 management (1 trained) to agree that a person has met the criteria. This does not include post-accident testing.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:39 pm

OB1504 wrote:
Virtually every company at my airport has a policy that they can conduct random drug and alcohol tests.

Do you mean that employees have to do one all the time now? What airport is this?


Side note: AFAIK, some airlines in Mainland China test all pilots at the start of every duty cycle.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
nws2002
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:42 pm

In the US this has been the norm for a long time. We're all subject drug/alchohol testing.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:52 pm

I've never seen any airport staff being subjected to breathalyzer tests at AMS (Not counting flight crew). I'm sure there would be more people in trouble then you might think, if they did..

Martijn
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Dalmd88
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:19 pm

We get random checked all the time. I think I've done it once a year for the past 4-5 years. Other people I know can't remember the last time they were tested. I just love it when your lead comes up and gives you the envelope with the time written on it. Off to the nurse's office you go for the wizz quiz.
 
ALTF4
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:40 pm

I'm not understanding the point of the OP. New world order edict, or something local to his municipality, his airline, his country, his...?
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
unimproved
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:55 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
I've never seen any airport staff being subjected to breathalyzer tests at AMS (Not counting flight crew). I'm sure there would be more people in trouble then you might think, if they did..

Martijn

They do randomly test the tow truck drivers at least.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:16 am

About time, Indian and Japanese railways have been doing this for years already. It's not random, it's every driver, every shift.
 
FGITD
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:16 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
About time, Indian and Japanese railways have been doing this for years already. It's not random, it's every driver, every shift.


Good luck getting anyone to work the ramp in the US if this were ever made a rule.

Not that I disagree with the sentiment behind the idea, and in my own experience it's extremely rare to find anyone inhibited while working out there.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:49 pm

FGITD wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
About time, Indian and Japanese railways have been doing this for years already. It's not random, it's every driver, every shift.


Good luck getting anyone to work the ramp in the US if this were ever made a rule.

Not that I disagree with the sentiment behind the idea, and in my own experience it's extremely rare to find anyone inhibited while working out there.


Someone being under the influence on the job is extremely rare, but not non-existent. Having said that, I do agree that testing before every shift seems excessive. The threat of random testing seems enough to encourage people to be more conservative in their drinking habits prior to duty.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
cpd
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:10 am

Starlionblue wrote:
FGITD wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
About time, Indian and Japanese railways have been doing this for years already. It's not random, it's every driver, every shift.


Good luck getting anyone to work the ramp in the US if this were ever made a rule.

Not that I disagree with the sentiment behind the idea, and in my own experience it's extremely rare to find anyone inhibited while working out there.


Someone being under the influence on the job is extremely rare, but not non-existent. Having said that, I do agree that testing before every shift seems excessive. The threat of random testing seems enough to encourage people to be more conservative in their drinking habits prior to duty.


I would be okay with testing before each shift.

I don’t work in a safety critical job, but it has been proposed numerous times for those in my line of work. Heck, I sit at a desk all day.

Those proposing the drug and alcohol testing (politicians) usually don’t want to be tested themselves however. Hmmm...
 
FGITD
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:18 pm

cpd wrote:

I would be okay with testing before each shift.

I don’t work in a safety critical job, but it has been proposed numerous times for those in my line of work. Heck, I sit at a desk all day.

Those proposing the drug and alcohol testing (politicians) usually don’t want to be tested themselves however. Hmmm...



The issue is this:

Rampers generally aren't paid well. It's a tough job. Outside in all weather, heavy lifting, etc. They already have to go through a more intensive process to get the job. (Badging, background checks, training) and usually they don't get simple benefits and perks (right down to being able to park near work)

So after going through all that, they're now going to be screened daily under the assumption that they might be under the influence...all to go toss bags for $10 an hour.

Like I said, it's a good idea in theory. But good luck getting staff.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:38 pm

Not going to happen in this neck of the woods because, legislation. The only authority who may administer drug and alcohol tests is the police, and they've made it quite clear they've neither the time nor inclination to play an active part in corporate policies. Therefore, until such time it comes legislation and the police are allocated the necessary resources to enforce it, and in the total absence of any political will to do so, it's not going to happen.
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fr8mech
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:19 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Not going to happen in this neck of the woods because, legislation. The only authority who may administer drug and alcohol tests is the police, and they've made it quite clear they've neither the time nor inclination to play an active part in corporate policies. Therefore, until such time it comes legislation and the police are allocated the necessary resources to enforce it, and in the total absence of any political will to do so, it's not going to happen.


Um, where is here? Because here, in my little part of the US, the DOT authorizes people to administer the BAT, and the drug screen.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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SAAFNAV
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:55 pm

Oh don't mind the OP.

The internet goes on every 4 months or so in India, and he takes the opportunity to add an already answered answer to every thread, and add a few new ones.
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B777LRF
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:08 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Um, where is here? Because here, in my little part of the US, the DOT authorizes people to administer the BAT, and the drug screen.


Bedrock of civilisation: Scandinavia :)
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fr8mech
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:30 am

B777LRF wrote:

Bedrock of civilisation: Scandinavia :)


So Scandinavian nations don't randomly test their safety sensitive personnel?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
B777LRF
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:03 am

fr8mech wrote:
B777LRF wrote:

Bedrock of civilisation: Scandinavia :)


So Scandinavian nations don't randomly test their safety sensitive personnel?


No, they don't. We trust each other not to do something that's illegal, but if suspicion should arises the police may be called to perform a test. But random tests without a sound reason (i.e. suspicion of being under the influence) does not take place. To elaborate, there's no mechanism under the law which allows for randomly testing people, regardless of their occupation.
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Flow2706
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:23 am

B777LRF wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
B777LRF wrote:

Bedrock of civilisation: Scandinavia :)


So Scandinavian nations don't randomly test their safety sensitive personnel?


No, they don't. We trust each other not to do something that's illegal, but if suspicion should arises the police may be called to perform a test. But random tests without a sound reason (i.e. suspicion of being under the influence) does not take place. To elaborate, there's no mechanism under the law which allows for randomly testing people, regardless of their occupation.

I have a different experience. When I was working in Indonesia there were daily breathalyser tests, before each duty. Afterwards, while working in Europe, I never got a breathalyser again until I was based in Oslo this summer. Me and my crew got two breathalyser tests there within this summer season - Police often shows up at the aircraft before boarding for morning flights on the weekend to test the crews. So Norway does breathalyser tests for aircrew for sure, in my personal experience even more than other European countries.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:13 pm

B777LRF wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
B777LRF wrote:

Bedrock of civilisation: Scandinavia :)


So Scandinavian nations don't randomly test their safety sensitive personnel?


No, they don't. We trust each other not to do something that's illegal, but if suspicion should arises the police may be called to perform a test. But random tests without a sound reason (i.e. suspicion of being under the influence) does not take place. To elaborate, there's no mechanism under the law which allows for randomly testing people, regardless of their occupation.

Trust is nice, but hardly something to be proud of. People take advantage of that kind of thing all the time.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:13 am

B777LRF wrote:

No, they don't. We trust each other not to do something that's illegal,


I trust that every single mechanic working for me, working on my aircraft, and working on aircraft that I may fly on are not on drugs and/or alcohol. I trust that all pilots, dispatchers, etc. are similarly clean. But, it's nice to have verification.

Aviation runs on the principle of "trust but verify". Pilots trust that mechanics have done their job, but they still do a preflight. Mechanics trust that flight crew have reported all known faults, but still do post-flight and preflight checks. The organization trusts that their mechanics have done their job correctly, but there is still a QC department to double-check certain items, and a QA department to look it all over.

If we didn't trust, we would test everyday, every shift.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
B777LRF
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:49 am

fr8mech wrote:

... l I was based in Oslo this summer. Me and my crew got two breathalyser tests there within this summer season - Police often shows up at the aircraft ....


Your experience is actually the same as I'm describing: Drug and alcohol tests, to the extent they're carried out, are done by the police - not some random company who may, or may not, have a hidden agenda. I've never been subjected to one, or know of anyone who has. YMMV, of course.

jetblueguy22 wrote:
[/quote][/quote]

The near total absence of anyone ever getting caught, seems to suggest trust and responsibility does, indeed, work. Might be different in your neck of the woods, of course. And I'd much rather live in a place of trust and understanding of personal responsibility than the opposite and, yes, it is indeed something to be proud of when it works.
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B777LRF
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:56 am

fr8mech wrote:
... l I was based in Oslo this summer. Me and my crew got two breathalyser tests there within this summer season - Police often shows up at the aircraft ....


Your experience is actually the same as I'm describing: Drug and alcohol tests, to the extent they're carried out, are done by the police - not some random company who may, or may not, have a hidden agenda. I've never been subjected to one, or know of anyone who has. YMMV, of course.

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Trust is nice, but hardly something to be proud of. People take advantage of that kind of thing all the time.


The near total absence of anyone ever getting caught, seems to suggest trust and responsibility does, indeed, work. Might be different in your neck of the woods, of course. And I'd much rather live in a place of trust and understanding of personal responsibility than the opposite and, yes, it is indeed something to be proud of when it works.

fr8mech wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
I trust that every single mechanic working for me, working on my aircraft, and working on aircraft that I may fly on are not on drugs and/or alcohol. I trust that all pilots, dispatchers, etc. are similarly clean. But, it's nice to have verification.

Aviation runs on the principle of "trust but verify". Pilots trust that mechanics have done their job, but they still do a preflight. Mechanics trust that flight crew have reported all known faults, but still do post-flight and preflight checks. The organization trusts that their mechanics have done their job correctly, but there is still a QC department to double-check certain items, and a QA department to look it all over.

If we didn't trust, we would test everyday, every shift.


There is a fundamental difference between the Nordics and most of the rest of the world, which is the level of trust we instil in each other. That doesn't mean mechanics are not being checked and double checked on the work they've done, nor that post- and pre-flight checks are not carried out. That's a question of professionalisms, whereas randomly checking everybody for D&A without suspicion is invasion of privacy - particularly if those tests are not carried out by the authorities.
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airportugal310
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:23 am

B777LRF wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
... l I was based in Oslo this summer. Me and my crew got two breathalyser tests there within this summer season - Police often shows up at the aircraft ....


Your experience is actually the same as I'm describing: Drug and alcohol tests, to the extent they're carried out, are done by the police - not some random company who may, or may not, have a hidden agenda. I've never been subjected to one, or know of anyone who has. YMMV, of course.

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Trust is nice, but hardly something to be proud of. People take advantage of that kind of thing all the time.


The near total absence of anyone ever getting caught, seems to suggest trust and responsibility does, indeed, work. Might be different in your neck of the woods, of course. And I'd much rather live in a place of trust and understanding of personal responsibility than the opposite and, yes, it is indeed something to be proud of when it works.

fr8mech wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
I trust that every single mechanic working for me, working on my aircraft, and working on aircraft that I may fly on are not on drugs and/or alcohol. I trust that all pilots, dispatchers, etc. are similarly clean. But, it's nice to have verification.

Aviation runs on the principle of "trust but verify". Pilots trust that mechanics have done their job, but they still do a preflight. Mechanics trust that flight crew have reported all known faults, but still do post-flight and preflight checks. The organization trusts that their mechanics have done their job correctly, but there is still a QC department to double-check certain items, and a QA department to look it all over.

If we didn't trust, we would test everyday, every shift.


There is a fundamental difference between the Nordics and most of the rest of the world, which is the level of trust we instil in each other. That doesn't mean mechanics are not being checked and double checked on the work they've done, nor that post- and pre-flight checks are not carried out. That's a question of professionalisms, whereas randomly checking everybody for D&A without suspicion is invasion of privacy - particularly if those tests are not carried out by the authorities.


With all due respect, the "authorities" are subject to bias and hidden agendas just like anyone else. They are human, after all. While they are held to a theoretical higher standard, this does not mean that they can't be corrupted.
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:15 am

B777LRF wrote:
[are done by the police - not some random company who may, or may not, have a hidden agenda.


You do realize that the "random company" is your employer, or a company contracted by your employer, and authorized to perform the testing and collection by the DOT? What hidden agenda could there possibly be? I guess your employer may be looking to terminate you, but I can think of easier ways to make that happen than doctoring a monitored and controlled test.

B777LRF wrote:
The near total absence of anyone ever getting caught, seems to suggest trust and responsibility does, indeed, work.


So, since you don't randomly test, how are you expected to catch someone using prohibited drugs or alcohol? Absence of people getting caught does not mean they're not doing it.

B777LRF wrote:
randomly checking everybody for D&A without suspicion is invasion of privacy


I agree, it is. But, that's the way it is. I'm not sure if it's been challenged in court, but I suspect it would be upheld as being necessary in the furtherance of safety. Much like the invasion of privacy we are subjected to when we choose to travel by air.

B777LRF wrote:
particularly if those tests are not carried out by the authorities.


Again, these folks aren't some random organization. They are vetted and approved by the DOT & HHS and perform collections in accordance with 14CFR120.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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B777LRF
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:24 am

You're looking at it from a US perspective, citing US law. Neither of which has any relevance what so ever to how things are done in the Nordics. You don't trust your employees and wish to check and verify, and that's fine for you I suppose. It's not fine here, and I'm quite happy with that.
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ChrisKen
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Re: Breath Analyser testing for Airside personnell

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:02 pm

B777LRF wrote:

No, they don't. We trust each other not to do something that's illegal, but if suspicion should arises the police may be called to perform a test. But random tests without a sound reason (i.e. suspicion of being under the influence) does not take place. To elaborate, there's no mechanism under the law which allows for randomly testing people, regardless of their occupation.

Yeah they do. It's a mandatory part of many employment contracts across Scandiland.

You may be confusing "only police are allowed to administer road-side/evidential drug tests" with corporate policies, which are perfectly acceptable and encouraged by Scandinavian drug laws.

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