Max Q
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Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:32 am

It seems a long time ago now but I have vivid memories of flying with other pilots who smoked in the cockpit


I would always walk to the back until they were done but the habit and smell was pretty obnoxious



However to use a dumb expression ‘back in the day’ pilots who smoked in the cockpit were the rule, not the exception


Anyone else have any cockpit smoking stories ?
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mchei
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:41 am

I once flew Tunis Air from Düsseldorf to Djerba in the early 2000s. The cockpit door was open and children were invited to visit the pilots - who were smoking the true stuff like Gauloise Bleu or so. I kept this memory because the smell was incredible. Plus they had the cigarette pack right in the middle so that they could easily share it.
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extender
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:27 pm

Smoking was good for something: Finding leaks.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:39 pm

In the 70s I used to fly with a chainsmoker in a SaberLiner. There were times I would put the O2 mask on.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm

Long time ago? I had a captain light up in 2019!
 
vikkyvik
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:14 pm

Ugh....even as a former smoker, I would never smoke in such a confined area. It's just disgusting.

Does the cockpit have strong enough ventilation to keep the air somewhat clear?
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JustAnFO
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:17 pm

Our ex-China jets have yellowed overhead panels and the distinct smell of stale tobacco smoke. It still goes on in some parts of the world.


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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:01 pm

Common in front of B727 at EAL and my first flights in a Citation.

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VSMUT
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:06 pm

vikkyvik wrote:
Does the cockpit have strong enough ventilation to keep the air somewhat clear?


No.

I still remember finding a review of a flight where I knew that particular captain and an FO who also smoked, had operated, and the reviewer had noticed it. So not only is the ventilation not strong enough, it seeps into the cabin as well :crazy:
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:55 pm

Flew with one CPT in 747-200 who was courteous enough to stand underneath the sexton port and crack it with a lanyard to suck out the smoke. Ironically this port was actually called the "Smoke evacuation port" as taking sexton shots were not used or way obsolete.

Flew with another CPT who would ask the other pilot's if they mind if he smoked. Didn't matter if you objected, he lit up anyway. Didn't join him for any beers after the flight.
 
Max Q
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:47 am

RetiredWeasel wrote:
Flew with one CPT in 747-200 who was courteous enough to stand underneath the sexton port and crack it with a lanyard to suck out the smoke. Ironically this port was actually called the "Smoke evacuation port" as taking sexton shots were not used or way obsolete.

Flew with another CPT who would ask the other pilot's if they mind if he smoked. Didn't matter if you objected, he lit up anyway. Didn't join him for any beers after the flight.




I know the type !


Flew with a Capt on the 727 who had discovered if he crouched over, exhaled down and towards the rudder pedal area the smoke was carried away by the ventilation system


A real dignified look as well..
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ParkFSI
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:30 pm

On my first solo X-country (1979) in a C-152 I decided to light up. I dropped the sig and it fell under the seat, I couldn’t get my hand under the seat and smoke started so I poured what was left of my soda on it and the smoke stopped. I never smoked in any aircraft again : )
 
buzzard302
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:43 pm

Not a pilot, but I certainly remember the smoking and non smoking sections. Also reminds me of restaurants when you walked in, the hostess would ask smoking or non smoking?

Seems crazy to think we ever thought smoking in a sealed tube 35,000 ft in the air was a good idea.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:20 pm

As a passenger, I remember smoking and non smoking, and also travelling in an AC 747 in june 1987 YMX-CDG. As there were no window seats left in the non smoking section I took the last one in the smoking section, with overhead vent opened to the max through all the flight!
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September11
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:07 pm

I remember the smell of cigarette smoke inside airplanes

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buzzard302
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:31 pm

So were the cabins better ventilated back when smoking was allowed? Seems there must have been an air exchange rate to handle all the smoke. How does that compare to cabins in modern built airplanes?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:29 am

buzzard302 wrote:
Not a pilot, but I certainly remember the smoking and non smoking sections. Also reminds me of restaurants when you walked in, the hostess would ask smoking or non smoking?

Seems crazy to think we ever thought smoking in a sealed tube 35,000 ft in the air was a good idea.


From a health point of view, I agree entirely.

From a fire hazard point of view, the big danger point is the lavatories. All that paper in a location that is often unattended...


buzzard302 wrote:
So were the cabins better ventilated back when smoking was allowed? Seems there must have been an air exchange rate to handle all the smoke. How does that compare to cabins in modern built airplanes?


AFAIK they were not better ventilated. And I would think modern airliners have better ventilation systems.
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rmilstre
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:59 am

Not in the cockpit, but this thread reminds me of a flight taken in early childhood, from Exeter to Guernsey. I was too young to know the aircraft type, but it was a prop and it was 2+2 seating. And the port side of the aircraft was non-smoking, while the starboard side of the aircraft was smoking. Even my 10-yr old brain found that to be ridiculous

-Rob.
 
hitower3
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:46 am

There is this nice video about the route proofing of the then-brand new Airbus A340-200 at Lufthansa, back in 1993.
https://youtu.be/3qMHgtrSlwk?t=221

Captain Dorfmeister lights up a cigar...
 
THS214
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:44 pm

buzzard302 wrote:
So were the cabins better ventilated back when smoking was allowed? Seems there must have been an air exchange rate to handle all the smoke. How does that compare to cabins in modern built airplanes?


No. When the smoking sign went of it was like poooooffff when everyone in the smoking section light up. There was a lot of smoke. Later on the flight it was less as they all were not smoking at the same time. But still a problem for a non smoker.

Finnair operated 2 A300s on leisure flights and some idiot desided that it was a good idea to have smoking section from door 2 to door 3. Sure they had a curtain but with constant traffic on the aisle that curtain was most of the time open. Whole plane turned out to be full of smoke and smell of cigarettes.

Back when smoking was allowed often the whole plane smell of cigarettes. Because in every class last rows were for smokers so 3 smoking sections on long haul.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:18 pm

I posted this a couple of years ago but is on topic in this thread:

As a 747-200 flight engineer in my early airline career, a couple of times the lead FA would come up to the cockpit and complain to the CPT that there's was way too much cigarette smoke in the cabin and it was bothering all the FA's. "Could you turn on the no-smoking sign please". Most CPTs would invent a reason (like turbulence reported ahead) and honor the lead's request.

Additionally, several old head lead FA's, knew about a procedure whereas the flight engineer would raise the cabin altitude 1000 feet or so and theoretically this would clear out most of the smoke through the outflow valves. Then the FE would slowly return the cabin altitude back to normal with the 'no-smoking' sign on. This was not any procedure that was written anywhere, but I was asked to do it a a couple of times. I really don't know how effective it was.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:02 pm

As I recall the FE could control the 2 outflow valves on the L1011 individualy and by opening the aft vavle just a little more than the fwd valve the smoke would drift aft and overboard? I may have this all wrong as that was 30+ years ago.
 
Max Q
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:31 pm

Bit of thread drift here but since outflow valves have been mentioned..


The MD80’s we operated had very weak air conditioning packs and poor airflow throughout the aircraft


On the ground in the summer they would get very hot inside, even more so in the cockpit, with the typical long taxi lines departing EWR we would start melting up there


Our solution was to open the cockpit windows then manually close the outflow valve whereupon all the air would rush forward to exit from our windows, the ‘new outflow valve’ it also produced a very respectable cooling breeze
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RetiredWeasel
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:51 am

Max Q wrote:
Bit of thread drift here but since outflow valves have been mentioned..
The MD80’s we operated had very weak air conditioning packs and poor airflow throughout the aircraft
On the ground in the summer they would get very hot inside, even more so in the cockpit, with the typical long taxi lines departing EWR we would start melting up there
Our solution was to open the cockpit windows then manually close the outflow valve whereupon all the air would rush forward to exit from our windows, the ‘new outflow valve’ it also produced a very respectable cooling breeze


We did similar in the 742 while still in the chocks except the windows didn't open. We'd open the upper deck crew access door and close the outflow valves in the freighter. On the PAX aircraft we may have done that also but as soon as boarding started, we had to close that door--this was all just while waiting in the chocks before pushback.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:07 am

My last flight riding on a VC-10 was on BA YYZ-YMX-PIK-MAN, the all Y configured aircraft had non-smoking on the left side and smoking on the right with only an aisle to separate the smokers from the non smokers. It wasn’t an issue as I think the fullest leg only had about 40 people on it. But I can imagine a full flight would be pretty toxic.

I didn’t care as I was just happy to be on a VC-10 again!
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Max Q
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:12 am

RetiredWeasel wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Bit of thread drift here but since outflow valves have been mentioned..
The MD80’s we operated had very weak air conditioning packs and poor airflow throughout the aircraft
On the ground in the summer they would get very hot inside, even more so in the cockpit, with the typical long taxi lines departing EWR we would start melting up there
Our solution was to open the cockpit windows then manually close the outflow valve whereupon all the air would rush forward to exit from our windows, the ‘new outflow valve’ it also produced a very respectable cooling breeze


We did similar in the 742 while still in the chocks except the windows didn't open. We'd open the upper deck crew access door and close the outflow valves in the freighter. On the PAX aircraft we may have done that also but as soon as boarding started, we had to close that door--this was all just while waiting in the chocks before pushback.



Fascinating,


If you were to open the overhead escape hatch in the cockpit and close the outflow valves would that have a similar affect?
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RetiredWeasel
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Max Q wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:

We did similar in the 742 while still in the chocks except the windows didn't open. We'd open the upper deck crew access door and close the outflow valves in the freighter. On the PAX aircraft we may have done that also but as soon as boarding started, we had to close that door--this was all just while waiting in the chocks before pushback.



Fascinating,


If you were to open the overhead escape hatch in the cockpit and close the outflow valves would that have a similar affect?

Yes, I had forgot about the escape hatch and actually as I think back on it, that was opened more often than the door to get the same effect.
 
Max Q
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:50 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
Max Q wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:

We did similar in the 742 while still in the chocks except the windows didn't open. We'd open the upper deck crew access door and close the outflow valves in the freighter. On the PAX aircraft we may have done that also but as soon as boarding started, we had to close that door--this was all just while waiting in the chocks before pushback.



Fascinating,


If you were to open the overhead escape hatch in the cockpit and close the outflow valves would that have a similar affect?

Yes, I had forgot about the escape hatch and actually as I think back on it, that was opened more often than the door to get the same effect.



Very interesting RW


Seen quite a few pics of the 747 parked with that hatch open
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Loran
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:03 pm

Last time I have experienced smoking in the cockpit was onboard Barq Aviation's L-1011 N164AT in early 2013 on a troop charter to Pakistan. I think the entire crew of over 25 (incl. ground engineers, etc.) came to the cockpit to smoke, you can maybe remotely imagine what that meant to a non-smoker like me. It was insane. :faint: :ill: Nevertheless a great flight...

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B777LRF
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:43 am

My company introduced no-smoking in the cockpit around 2003, which everyone - including the smokers - agreed was a good idea. Not least because we were flying freighters, and thus had the option of stepping out the back for a quick smoke once at cruise altitude.

Did have an issue on the 757PF, as there was no option for stepping outside the cockpit. Some clever sod, however, found that if the door to the loo was opened just a tiny bit, the lower pressure inside the loo (don't know why, but it was) would act as a highly effective extractor. Thus, the procedure for that aircraft was to stand next to the loo, wedge the door open with a pen, and enjoy a smoke without polluting the entire cockpit. The 767 had a bit of the same issue, but the aircraft almost never carried a ULD in the first position, so one could open the door to the cargo area and pop out there for a crafty one.

Smoking onboard freighters is quite normal and nobody bats an eyelid; out of sight, out of mind and all that.
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Nomadd
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:17 pm

We had smoking in a DC-3 cockpit in Congo-Brazzaville once in 91, but it turned out it wasn't the pilot. Shoulda been suspicious when he started banging on the instrument panel to make gauges work before takeoff.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:48 pm

A Gruber and Johnson book on industrial development mentions in the early 40s a car manufacturer have several thousand unneeded ashtrays. They were shipped over to Boeing in Seattle and added to bombers. Tobacco helped win WII. LOL
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LH707330
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:11 pm

B777LRF wrote:
My company introduced no-smoking in the cockpit around 2003, which everyone - including the smokers - agreed was a good idea. Not least because we were flying freighters, and thus had the option of stepping out the back for a quick smoke once at cruise altitude.

Did have an issue on the 757PF, as there was no option for stepping outside the cockpit. Some clever sod, however, found that if the door to the loo was opened just a tiny bit, the lower pressure inside the loo (don't know why, but it was) would act as a highly effective extractor. Thus, the procedure for that aircraft was to stand next to the loo, wedge the door open with a pen, and enjoy a smoke without polluting the entire cockpit. The 767 had a bit of the same issue, but the aircraft almost never carried a ULD in the first position, so one could open the door to the cargo area and pop out there for a crafty one.

Smoking onboard freighters is quite normal and nobody bats an eyelid; out of sight, out of mind and all that.

On most airliners, the lav sinks drain overboard, that helps get the water and smells out of the aircraft. I've heard of several freight crews lighting up and blowing into the sink to get the smoke out, so I could see holding the door working as well.
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:29 pm

Reading this thread, I'm curious as to when the US military officially prohibited smoking in the cockpit? I've seen some old videos of crew smoking in B-52s and other heavy transports. If you're flying a C-5 12 hours to the Middle East or somewhere, and there's only a few crew on board that decides to light up in the cargo bay, or even the cockpit, is anybody every going to know? Especially if the commanding officers give to go ahead and break the rules. (I mean commercial pilots are still known to smoke from time to time in the cockpit. You can't tell me nobody ever smokes in military planes only carrying a handful of crew)
 
BravoOne
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:13 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A Gruber and Johnson book on industrial development mentions in the early 40s a car manufacturer have several thousand unneeded ashtrays. They were shipped over to Boeing in Seattle and added to bombers. Tobacco helped win WII. LOL


I have seen ashtrays in mid 60's built 707-320C's that are indentical to those found in the B17's and C97's. I guess when you by them by the freight car full your bound to have some leftover.
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:22 pm

LH707330 wrote:
On most airliners, the lav sinks drain overboard, that helps get the water and smells out of the aircraft. I've heard of several freight crews lighting up and blowing into the sink to get the smoke out, so I could see holding the door working as well.


Not only freighter crews. When I was a brand new F/O one old salt Cabin Crew showed me this trick in the back of a 737 full of pax... She knew other good tricks too... :mrgreen:
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cpd
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:12 pm

hitower3 wrote:
There is this nice video about the route proofing of the then-brand new Airbus A340-200 at Lufthansa, back in 1993.
https://youtu.be/3qMHgtrSlwk?t=221

Captain Dorfmeister lights up a cigar...



And to think, Lufthansa ask the pax to “kindly refrain from smoking cigars and pipes.”

I would never have survived in that smoking era.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:18 pm

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
Reading this thread, I'm curious as to when the US military officially prohibited smoking in the cockpit? I've seen some old videos of crew smoking in B-52s and other heavy transports. If you're flying a C-5 12 hours to the Middle East or somewhere, and there's only a few crew on board that decides to light up in the cargo bay, or even the cockpit, is anybody every going to know? Especially if the commanding officers give to go ahead and break the rules. (I mean commercial pilots are still known to smoke from time to time in the cockpit. You can't tell me nobody ever smokes in military planes only carrying a handful of crew)


It would have been in 90s. I remember it, but not year. Before then it was mostly the enlisted crew, we only had maybe 4 or 5 pilots that smoked. I thought banning was a bad idea because it was commonly known “going down to check cargo box” was really having a smoke near the outflow cables in the C-5 and a careless smoker could create a fire hazard. Once had a #1 hydraulic line with a sudden pinhole leak atomizing high pressure 5606 into a cloud. Until we depressurized the system we were flying bomb as 5606 vapor was explosive in the right concentration.

The rule was generally followed. I remember one snowy afternoon waiting for the deicing, “going outside to burn one” was soon followed by a snowman outside with cigarette in hand.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:29 pm

I recall that you could open the sextant mounting hole in the flight deck and you very rapidly evacuate any smoke or other fumes. Very noisy though. Cigars were pretty rare but pipes were not that uncommon. There were a few that smoked those rum soaked crooks, (little cigars) once and awhile.
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: Remember smoking in the cockpit ?

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:51 pm

I recall reading somewhere that at least in the US, smoking was legally permitted (though of course carriers could make their own, stricter rules) in the cockpit for some time after it was banned in the cabin, presumably on the grounds that the danger from a pilot experiencing withdrawal symptoms outweighed the fire risk. Was that the case? Of so, how long did that last, and did any carriers actually permit it?

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