Scruffle
Topic Author
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Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:14 pm

Landing on water

Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:46 pm

All modern commercial aircraft are designed with (mostly) twin engines which are attached to the underside of each wing. It strikes me that this design seriously compromises a pilot’s chances of performing a successful landing (or ditching if you prefer) in water. Would it be easier to carry out this manoeuvre if the engines were located elsewhere, ie on the top rear of the fuselage? Cheers. Scruffle.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3958
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:42 am

Sully didn’t seem to have no problem. It’s not an issue. Designers aren’t designing planes for one in a billion events at the loss of efficiency.

GF
 
Zeke2517
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:50 am

Sully’s landing on a nice smooth river aside, those life jackets are really just there to make you feel better. Whether the engines are under the wing, over the wing, or on the tail, if the airliner you’re riding in goes down in open water you’re going to die.

Have a nice day?
 
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Loran
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:25 am

The engine links are break points and the engine will detach at a certain load. In most cases this should work ok if the engines contact water simultaneously. Depends a lot on how level the airplane is upon water contact, I guess everyone remembers ET's 762 ditching asymetrically which pulled the airplane over and lead to the loss of lives. I would assume an MD-80 type configuration is has less problems with asymetric water contact, however I am happy to be corrected.

Regards,
Loran
703 717 727 732-9 747 757 767 777 787 AB2/6 310 318-321 330 340 359 380 D8M D91/3/5 D1C M11 M81-90 L10 IL1/8/6/7/W/9/4 TU3/5/2 YK4/2
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:49 am

The magic of Sully's landing has so many facets. In the sim, hydroplaning both engines simultaneously is one thing. Doing it for real put Sully on the Pantheon of Pilots.
 
askr
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Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:50 pm

Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:21 pm

Other then that, an engine weights a lot - so an overwing engine will have a very large turning force and will push the nose down - you can trim / design for this while flying - eg. An-72.
In water - it will push the nose down.
ATC-PL Wanabe :) - 2nd application is in... 11 July...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:00 pm

Zeke2517 wrote:
Sully’s landing on a nice smooth river aside, those life jackets are really just there to make you feel better. Whether the engines are under the wing, over the wing, or on the tail, if the airliner you’re riding in goes down in open water you’re going to die.

Have a nice day?


Look up the history of ditching and you’ll find that isn’t the case at all. Pretty high survival rate including a USN P-3 in the North Pacific.


GF
 
BravoOne
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:23 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Zeke2517 wrote:
Sully’s landing on a nice smooth river aside, those life jackets are really just there to make you feel better. Whether the engines are under the wing, over the wing, or on the tail, if the airliner you’re riding in goes down in open water you’re going to die.

Have a nice day?


Look up the history of ditching and you’ll find that isn’t the case at all. Pretty high survival rate including a USN P-3 in the North Pacific.


GF



Agree 100%. Where people comeuppance with these ideas is beyond me. There have been a number of quasi successful airliner ditchings since the 50's. NWA, PAA, ONA, USN, and FTL all had ditchings without a total loss of life. The NWA and FTL ditchings made Sully's ditching look easy, which it was for the most part.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1834
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:42 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Zeke2517 wrote:
Sully’s landing on a nice smooth river aside, those life jackets are really just there to make you feel better. Whether the engines are under the wing, over the wing, or on the tail, if the airliner you’re riding in goes down in open water you’re going to die.

Have a nice day?

Look up the history of ditching and you’ll find that isn’t the case at all. Pretty high survival rate including a USN P-3 in the North Pacific.

My own personal favorite is the Tarom Tu-154 at NDB (I'll spell that out for y'all; Nouadhibou, Mauretania)
Wikipedia wrote:
YR-TPH...ditched in the water 300 m short of the runway at Nouadhibou Airport. (This was the middle of the night, and there is some question as to whether the runway lights were on).
A missed approach procedure was initiated when the pilot felt contact with what he thought was ground but was actually water. All of the 152 passengers and 16 crew members survived the impact, but a passenger suffered a heart attack and died before he could be rescued. Most of the passengers were sailors.... Many passengers swam to the land, while sharks were kept away by the vibrations of an engine which continued to function for a few hours after the crash.
You gotta love those Russian birds; tough as nails. :yes:
And the aircraft are quite well engineered too....

Thought for the day; if you're flying over water, make sure it's a tri-jet. :lol:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:07 pm

Engines on top of the fuselage aren't too great for crash landings. This aircraft here is designed for ditching, but in case of a hard crash landing I'd be really worried about that heavy engine crashing down on the cockpit. Over the wings is slightly less bad, but they might still drop onto the wings or block an overwing emergency exit. Remember all the people standing on US 1549's wings?
Image
 
snasteve
Posts: 81
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Re: Landing on water

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:45 am

Loran wrote:
The engine links are break points and the engine will detach at a certain load. In most cases this should work ok if the engines contact water simultaneously. Depends a lot on how level the airplane is upon water contact, I guess everyone remembers ET's 762 ditching asymetrically which pulled the airplane over and lead to the loss of lives. I would assume an MD-80 type configuration is has less problems with asymetric water contact, however I am happy to be corrected.

Regards,
Loran


On the ETA 76 to crash, many (most) did survive the crash, if only to drown after by inflating their vests inside the cabin trapping them inside..
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Landing on water

Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:01 pm

Scruffle wrote:
All modern commercial aircraft are designed with (mostly) twin engines which are attached to the underside of each wing. It strikes me that this design seriously compromises a pilot’s chances of performing a successful landing (or ditching if you prefer) in water. Would it be easier to carry out this manoeuvre if the engines were located elsewhere, ie on the top rear of the fuselage? Cheers. Scruffle.


No, it wouldn't.

The benefit of the engine touching the water before the fuselage is that, as the engine touches the water, the plane slows down and the fuselage actually touches the water rather smooth. However should the fuselage touch the water first while the engine is still running, this might result in the engine pushing the front fuselage under water. Similar to when an aircraft touches the ground while the wheel brakes are on, it will top over forward. That's why pilots always start breaking after touchdown, never before.

Also, as I have been told, modern engines are built to detach from the wings as they touch the water.
 
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litz
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Re: Landing on water

Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:25 pm

Loran wrote:
I guess everyone remembers ET's 762 ditching asymetrically which pulled the airplane over and lead to the loss of lives.


Even worse in this case, the left wingtip struck an underwater reef which basically -- instantly -- snapped the wing ... with no lift coming from the left side, the airplane rolled right over from the lift on the opposing wing, tearing it apart.
 
TheWorm123
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Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Re: Landing on water

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:45 am

If you put together the statistics for all water crashes, the number of ditchings compared would likely be considered statistically insignificant.

Planes do after all have a habit of instantly smashing into millions of tiny pieces upon impact with the ocean, with some exceptions like Aeroperu 603 which I believe drowned a lot of passengers on the way to the ocean floor.
752 753 A332
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:55 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
If you put together the statistics for all water crashes, the number of ditchings compared would likely be considered statistically insignificant.

Planes do after all have a habit of instantly smashing into millions of tiny pieces upon impact with the ocean, with some exceptions like Aeroperu 603 which I believe drowned a lot of passengers on the way to the ocean floor.


No, they don’t. Intentional ditching shave proven quite survivable.


GF
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 33
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Re: Landing on water

Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:00 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:
If you put together the statistics for all water crashes, the number of ditchings compared would likely be considered statistically insignificant.

Planes do after all have a habit of instantly smashing into millions of tiny pieces upon impact with the ocean, with some exceptions like Aeroperu 603 which I believe drowned a lot of passengers on the way to the ocean floor.


No, they don’t. Intentional ditching shave proven quite survivable, which in itself is extremely rare because of how rarely commercial airliners crash as a whole.

GF

I never said ditchings aren’t survivable, I said that in the vast majority of crashes in the ocean that planes breaks up which is true.

A survivable ditching is even rarer than a fatal plane crash in the ocean.
752 753 A332
 
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Starlionblue
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Landing on water

Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:12 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:
If you put together the statistics for all water crashes, the number of ditchings compared would likely be considered statistically insignificant.

Planes do after all have a habit of instantly smashing into millions of tiny pieces upon impact with the ocean, with some exceptions like Aeroperu 603 which I believe drowned a lot of passengers on the way to the ocean floor.


No, they don’t. Intentional ditching shave proven quite survivable, which in itself is extremely rare because of how rarely commercial airliners crash as a whole.

GF

I never said ditchings aren’t survivable, I said that in the vast majority of crashes in the ocean that planes breaks up which is true.

A survivable ditching is even rarer than a fatal plane crash in the ocean.


Maybe because the "vast majority" of crashes over ocean have been at rather high rates of vertical speed? Just guessing.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Landing on water

Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Check this out. Several of these make Sully's event look almost a non event..


https://aviation-safety.net/database/ev ... Event=REED
 
bluejuice
Posts: 374
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Re: Landing on water

Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:49 am

The "crash" of JL2 was so smooth, most passengers did not realize the plane accidentally ditched. DC-8 JA8032 was fished out of the water, repaired, and flew into the 1990s.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/artic ... 210875.php
Not biased against vacuum flush.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Landing on water

Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:02 pm

Not sure you can call the JAL water landing a ditching. More like landing short in the water.

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