dfwjim1
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In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:10 am

I always follow in flight maps when flying and I have noticed that besides showing major cities along the way there are usually a couple of small and obscure towns shown too. Is there a particular reason why small towns are shown on in flight maps?

Thanks for your responses.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:17 am

I suspect this is simply to add variety. Some maps even show shipwrecks...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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DocLightning
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:44 am

Starlionblue wrote:
I suspect this is simply to add variety. Some maps even show shipwrecks...


Starlionblue, you'll know the answer to this: how does the IFE system "know" what the destination city is? Once when I was on a flight, the destination city was completely wrong and didn't change until takeoff thrust was applied. I thought that was weird. Does the flight crew or cabin crew input it?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Starlionblue
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:02 am

DocLightning wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
I suspect this is simply to add variety. Some maps even show shipwrecks...


Starlionblue, you'll know the answer to this: how does the IFE system "know" what the destination city is? Once when I was on a flight, the destination city was completely wrong and didn't change until takeoff thrust was applied. I thought that was weird. Does the flight crew or cabin crew input it?


I don't know a lot about it but IIRC the destination is taken from the FM once you put the route in, which is one of the first things done in the cockpit setup. It won't show the actual flight plan route though. Just a great circle. Which can lead to some interesting questions if it shows you flying over a war zone.

I don't know why yours showed the wrong one.... AFAIK the cabin crew have no input into the system at all.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
shamrock137
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:36 am

DocLightning wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
I suspect this is simply to add variety. Some maps even show shipwrecks...


Starlionblue, you'll know the answer to this: how does the IFE system "know" what the destination city is? Once when I was on a flight, the destination city was completely wrong and didn't change until takeoff thrust was applied. I thought that was weird. Does the flight crew or cabin crew input it?


Most systems take that data from the FMS/ACARS. Some systems can be adjusted and updated by the cabin crew. Not sure why a system wouldn't update until takeoff.... maybe the IFE was lagging and hadn't updated and the status change in the FMS from ground to flight triggered the data to finally push through?
Time to spare? Go by air!
 
VSMUT
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:53 am

shamrock137 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
I suspect this is simply to add variety. Some maps even show shipwrecks...


Starlionblue, you'll know the answer to this: how does the IFE system "know" what the destination city is? Once when I was on a flight, the destination city was completely wrong and didn't change until takeoff thrust was applied. I thought that was weird. Does the flight crew or cabin crew input it?


Most systems take that data from the FMS/ACARS. Some systems can be adjusted and updated by the cabin crew. Not sure why a system wouldn't update until takeoff.... maybe the IFE was lagging and hadn't updated and the status change in the FMS from ground to flight triggered the data to finally push through?


Flight crew inadvertently entered the wrong destination? Sloppy to get that far without noticing but definitely possible.
 
shamrock137
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:32 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Flight crew inadvertently entered the wrong destination? Sloppy to get that far without noticing but definitely possible.


Eh probably not, more likely the system was lagging. I'm not sure how often the IFE computer queries the FMS for an update while on the ground. The aircraft may have been scheduled to operate another flight then swapped at the last min and for whatever reason the FMS data didn't get pushed to the IFE. When airborne some systems update pretty instantly, for example the altitude will click down on the screen as you're descending. But others are slower, as the "slideshow" progresses, the numbers only update when that slide is displayed.

I've flown on LH a few times and the Rave system has one of the bast maps in my opinion. the "live" flight deck view which superimposes the satellite map in real time is pretty cool.
Time to spare? Go by air!
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:18 pm

shamrock137 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Flight crew inadvertently entered the wrong destination? Sloppy to get that far without noticing but definitely possible.


Eh probably not, more likely the system was lagging. I'm not sure how often the IFE computer queries the FMS for an update while on the ground. The aircraft may have been scheduled to operate another flight then swapped at the last min and for whatever reason the FMS data didn't get pushed to the IFE. When airborne some systems update pretty instantly, for example the altitude will click down on the screen as you're descending. But others are slower, as the "slideshow" progresses, the numbers only update when that slide is displayed.

I've flown on LH a few times and the Rave system has one of the bast maps in my opinion. the "live" flight deck view which superimposes the satellite map in real time is pretty cool.


Indeed. It does bug me that the virtual aircraft doesn't bank though. ;)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:32 pm

As others have said the system uses data as derived from the FMS. Not sure how a crew would put the wrong destination without catching it prior to pushback but I guess in todays world anything is possible. I have heard stories about mixups between KSNA and KSAN which are kind of close, but still all the preflight checks should eliminate this error very early on, and certainly prior to the push.

There are almost endless options should the user desire to tailor their Airshow to fit their particular needs. Just takes more $$.
 
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DaProf
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:29 pm

BravoOne wrote:
As others have said the system uses data as derived from the FMS. Not sure how a crew would put the wrong destination without catching it prior to pushback but I guess in todays world anything is possible. I have heard stories about mixups between KSNA and KSAN which are kind of close, but still all the preflight checks should eliminate this error very early on, and certainly prior to the push.

There are almost endless options should the user desire to tailor their Airshow to fit their particular needs. Just takes more $$.


I would imagine part of it would be how it is derived from the FMS. After all the IFE network should be completely separate from the FMS system for security and safety reasons.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:47 pm

This is fairly normal for some reason. It’s FMS data but the refresh doesn’t always transfer. There’s a lot of software and computers involved these days.
 
BravoOne
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This is fairly normal for some reason. It’s FMS data but the refresh doesn’t always transfer. There’s a lot of software and computers involved these days.



Not sure what you are referring to as being fairly normal? When you load the FMS, assuming that the flight plan is not up linked to begin with, all of this data should be easily confirmed during the preflight on the FMS. What have I missed? I'm not familiar with the term refresh as it's applied to this issue?
 
VSMUT
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:05 pm

BravoOne wrote:
As others have said the system uses data as derived from the FMS. Not sure how a crew would put the wrong destination without catching it prior to pushback but I guess in todays world anything is possible. I have heard stories about mixups between KSNA and KSAN which are kind of close, but still all the preflight checks should eliminate this error very early on, and certainly prior to the push.


Just enter the wrong destination code. Easy to confuse them all if you are busy and flying a lot. Don't know how exactly other types work, but for the ATR you enter point of departure, point of arrival and then the route. It was beaten into me from day one to double check the data and cross-check the flying distance in particular, because the computer is dumb enough to just draw a line from the last waypoint to a destination on the other side of the planet. Pretty sure the 737NG FMC I've trained a bit on once was the same. At the most the plane will give me a small, at times barely visible, MSG notification which will be about not having fuel enough.
 
BravoOne
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:32 pm

Usually the Not Enough Fuel will trigger further examiniation followed by a mileage discrepancy.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:49 pm

BravoOne wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This is fairly normal for some reason. It’s FMS data but the refresh doesn’t always transfer. There’s a lot of software and computers involved these days.



Not sure what you are referring to as being fairly normal? When you load the FMS, assuming that the flight plan is not up linked to begin with, all of this data should be easily confirmed during the preflight on the FMS. What have I missed? I'm not familiar with the term refresh as it's applied to this issue?


Well, the cabin systems I’ve used refresh, rather get data, from the FMS but when and how it does it varies and seems to fail every once and awhile. Now, I’m speaking of bizjets Collins Venue or LH Technik, but it does occur that the data doesn’t transfer for no obvious reason.

It’s clearly not an FMS or pilot problem, it’s the CMS software interface.

GF
 
BravoOne
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:53 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This is fairly normal for some reason. It’s FMS data but the refresh doesn’t always transfer. There’s a lot of software and computers involved these days.



Not sure what you are referring to as being fairly normal? When you load the FMS, assuming that the flight plan is not up linked to begin with, all of this data should be easily confirmed during the preflight on the FMS. What have I missed? I'm not familiar with the term refresh as it's applied to this issue?


Well, the cabin systems I’ve used refresh, rather get data, from the FMS but when and how it does it varies and seems to fail every once and awhile. Now, I’m speaking of bizjets Collins Venue or LH Technik, but it does occur that the data doesn’t transfer for no obvious reason.

It’s clearly not an FMS or pilot problem, it’s the CMS software interface.

GF



Thanks, I see where you're coming from now:)
 
DALMD80
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Re: In flight maps ?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:56 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
I suspect this is simply to add variety. Some maps even show shipwrecks...


Starlionblue, you'll know the answer to this: how does the IFE system "know" what the destination city is? Once when I was on a flight, the destination city was completely wrong and didn't change until takeoff thrust was applied. I thought that was weird. Does the flight crew or cabin crew input it?

Probably taken from the FMS.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
Okie
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Re: In flight maps ?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:12 am

DocLightning wrote:
Starlionblue, you'll know the answer to this: how does the IFE system "know" what the destination city is? Once when I was on a flight, the destination city was completely wrong and didn't change until takeoff thrust was applied. I thought that was weird. Does the flight crew or cabin crew input it?

My thought would be that the destination would have been the alternate or just next/last leg that that crew was going to fly that day.

That would probably be the last thing cross checked and then the crew switched to home screen, present flight, right before they started the takeoff roll.


Okie
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In flight maps ?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:24 am

BravoOne wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


Not sure what you are referring to as being fairly normal? When you load the FMS, assuming that the flight plan is not up linked to begin with, all of this data should be easily confirmed during the preflight on the FMS. What have I missed? I'm not familiar with the term refresh as it's applied to this issue?


Well, the cabin systems I’ve used refresh, rather get data, from the FMS but when and how it does it varies and seems to fail every once and awhile. Now, I’m speaking of bizjets Collins Venue or LH Technik, but it does occur that the data doesn’t transfer for no obvious reason.

It’s clearly not an FMS or pilot problem, it’s the CMS software interface.

GF



Thanks, I see where you're coming from now:)


If there’s a weak area in many biz jets it seems to be CMS systems. The “green” plane runs fine but the Direct TV, DVD player or phone is a problem. Mostly the interfaces.
 
LH707330
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Re: In flight maps ?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:01 am

I've seen several nav goof-ups

1. The Delta ones often show insane distance numbers
2. I saw an LH one with incorrect coordinates

Then there's all the other stuff in there too. Here's a thread on the topic with some examples: https://www.airlinercafe.com/forums.php ... 5954#65954
 
unimproved
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Re: In flight maps ?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:54 am

It all depends on the system config. The Panasonic system we use requires the cabin crew to open a flight before it starts.
 
chimborazo
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Re: In flight maps ?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:42 pm

I flew on QR008 Heathrow to Doha yesterday - A359. The moving map seemed correct but the headline before entering into the 3D map itself gave the “Time to LHR” rather than DOH throughout the flight. They’d switched equipment from A351 to A359 before the flight. Not sure if that had any effect... either way it was still flown in from DOH.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: In flight maps ?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:25 pm

chimborazo wrote:
I flew on QR008 Heathrow to Doha yesterday - A359. The moving map seemed correct but the headline before entering into the 3D map itself gave the “Time to LHR” rather than DOH throughout the flight. They’d switched equipment from A351 to A359 before the flight. Not sure if that had any effect... either way it was still flown in from DOH.


My guess is that the information from the FM didn't feed into the system somehow.

The A350 FM is initialised before every flight, and the second input is departure/destination. (The first input is the flight number.)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Leej
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Re: In flight maps ?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:47 pm

Always wondered why, on returning home on BA - 'Charterhouse' is showed (near Guildford) - yes we know it is a famous school, but what relevance to other much larger places? Bizarre!!
 
dfwjim1
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Re: In flight maps ?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:32 pm

Leej wrote:
Always wondered why, on returning home on BA - 'Charterhouse' is showed (near Guildford) - yes we know it is a famous school, but what relevance to other much larger places? Bizarre!!


That was the point of my original posting. Why are such small places shown on in flight maps?
 
N47
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Re: In flight maps ?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:31 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Leej wrote:
Always wondered why, on returning home on BA - 'Charterhouse' is showed (near Guildford) - yes we know it is a famous school, but what relevance to other much larger places? Bizarre!!


That was the point of my original posting. Why are such small places shown on in flight maps?


If I may speculate, maybe the AC is tuned to a ground based NAVAID at that location and so it identifies it on the map. On my EWR - SEA flight it identified Hibbing (MN) as one of the cities on the map, which by no means is a major city, but it does have a VOR (HIB) so maybe thats why it showed up on the IFE map.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: In flight maps ?

Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:35 am

N47 wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Leej wrote:
Always wondered why, on returning home on BA - 'Charterhouse' is showed (near Guildford) - yes we know it is a famous school, but what relevance to other much larger places? Bizarre!!


That was the point of my original posting. Why are such small places shown on in flight maps?


If I may speculate, maybe the AC is tuned to a ground based NAVAID at that location and so it identifies it on the map. On my EWR - SEA flight it identified Hibbing (MN) as one of the cities on the map, which by no means is a major city, but it does have a VOR (HIB) so maybe thats why it showed up on the IFE map.


That’s not how it works. The FMS merely sends a few discrete bits of data to the CMS—origin, destination, speed and altitude plus arrival time in GMT. The CMS translates that into what you see. Actual navigation beyond that are not transmitted as it’s useless and might add a means of interference. Those map features are just part the CMS display to add pax interest.
 
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dangerhere
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Re: In flight maps ?

Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:47 pm

I have often wondered about this as well, you might see Potsdam but not Berlin for example or Prüm shows along with Moscow, Paris and Rome.
 
Lukas757
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Re: In flight maps ?

Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
N47 wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:

That was the point of my original posting. Why are such small places shown on in flight maps?


If I may speculate, maybe the AC is tuned to a ground based NAVAID at that location and so it identifies it on the map. On my EWR - SEA flight it identified Hibbing (MN) as one of the cities on the map, which by no means is a major city, but it does have a VOR (HIB) so maybe thats why it showed up on the IFE map.


That’s not how it works. The FMS merely sends a few discrete bits of data to the CMS—origin, destination, speed and altitude plus arrival time in GMT. The CMS translates that into what you see. Actual navigation beyond that are not transmitted as it’s useless and might add a means of interference. Those map features are just part the CMS display to add pax interest.


It has to send the actual position as well, as otherwise you would see just a straight line between origin and destination. On my last flight (EK 77W) you could see the exact route (how we avoided entering Saudian Airspace). Or maybe the actual heading. But one parameter more than the listed is needed to show the actual route.
 
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ClipperYankee
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Re: In flight maps ?

Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:37 pm

I was on a flight to PHX, from PHL, I think, and was using my GPS on my tray table to follow the flight's progress (yes, I think the airline allowed it at the time, maybe still does) and as we flew over Olathe, Kansas the name "Garmin" came up in little letters on the screen. I thought it was cute that they programmed that in and it showed as we happened to fly over Garmin HQ.
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