dfwjim1
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Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:55 am

When ATC in the United States asks for the number of people on a plane they always ask for the number of souls rather then persons. Why is that?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:10 am

Nautical tradition, simple. I was told souls signifies live bodies.

GF
 
N1120A
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:00 am

Actually, the US standard phraseology is Persons on Board now, matching the ICAO standard. Souls on Board is an archaic usage that some folks are used to.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:16 am

Another explanation I've read, long, long, long ago, was that "souls on board" reminds the crew to include themselves. With "persons on board", they might only communicate the number of passengers.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:38 am

"Persons on board" is unambiguously the total...

I've never heard "souls" in actual ops. I've heard " though.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:52 pm

I believe 'souls' as a nautical term was meant to be all inclusive: crew, passengers, minus any who died, plus any born, stowaways, those who might be been found and rescued.
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zeke
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 pm

Sometimes depending on the circumstances an indication of any NHS onboard maybe warranted.
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BHM
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:52 am

To go one step further with the question, why even bother the flight crew with the question? Surely we have a quickly available total from other sources.
 
MD88CLE
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:20 am

Starlionblue wrote:
I've never heard "souls" in actual ops.


You can hear a relatively recent example [url]here[/url] from LiveATC.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:43 am

BHM wrote:
To go one step further with the question, why even bother the flight crew with the question? Surely we have a quickly available total from other sources.


This is something you might want to confirm with the flight crew. And it is way faster to ask the crew.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Woodreau
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:38 pm

Found this after a quick google search

https://www.natca.org/index.php/insider ... s-on-board

You’ll get two questions. people and fuel.

Souls is for the crash fire and rescue teams in the event it’s needed

Fuel in time (not quantity) for the air traffic controller (the SAR team uses it to calculate the maximum possible search radius from datum (the last known position of the aircraft)
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shamrock137
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:06 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
BHM wrote:
To go one step further with the question, why even bother the flight crew with the question? Surely we have a quickly available total from other sources.


This is something you might want to confirm with the flight crew. And it is way faster to ask the crew.


Exactly, crew will have the manifest. There are a few different counts of who is onboard and why "Souls" or "Persons" might be a better ask then "How many are onboard?". The passenger count usually doesn't include infants and may not include those in jump seats. Dead head crew are sometimes not included in the passenger count. Souls on board or persons on board is just an inclusionary term for "Discard whatever procedures your airline has for differentiating passengers, non revs, jump seaters or whoever and just tell us how many people are on your plane"
Time to spare? Go by air!
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:02 am

shamrock137 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
BHM wrote:
To go one step further with the question, why even bother the flight crew with the question? Surely we have a quickly available total from other sources.


This is something you might want to confirm with the flight crew. And it is way faster to ask the crew.


Exactly, crew will have the manifest. There are a few different counts of who is onboard and why "Souls" or "Persons" might be a better ask then "How many are onboard?". The passenger count usually doesn't include infants and may not include those in jump seats. Dead head crew are sometimes not included in the passenger count. Souls on board or persons on board is just an inclusionary term for "Discard whatever procedures your airline has for differentiating passengers, non revs, jump seaters or whoever and just tell us how many people are on your plane"


The passenger count includes infants and jumpseaters where I work. Anyone not on the crew list will be included in the pax number.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
extender
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:02 pm

Souls on Board is still used. As recently as of last week. Go to the 1:00 mark.

Link.

Another reference, Page 1:

“Souls on Board” – total number of passengers and crew.

AC-150/5210-7D
 
SimProgrammer
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:36 am

The transponder should be designed to give the souls and fuel in the telemetry.
Drive a bus, an Airbus, easier than a London bus!
 
N1120A
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:47 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Another explanation I've read, long, long, long ago, was that "souls on board" reminds the crew to include themselves. With "persons on board", they might only communicate the number of passengers.


That isn't true.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why souls on board rather then persons?

Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:42 am

SimProgrammer wrote:
The transponder should be designed to give the souls and fuel in the telemetry.


Eventually, we will get there. Right now though, not every aircraft has the pax number in an onboard system.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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