BA777FO
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US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:09 am

Being European based with EASA but also being acclimatised going west-bound but unacclimatised going eastbound I think our rulesets apply slightly differently but I have heard a lot of US airlines are 3-crew across the Atlantic except for a few destinations (Ireland and some other closer ones).

Just curious which routes are 2-crew into London. Our longest 2-crew trip is Atlanta or Orlando in the summer (although due to failing schedule regularity they're 3 crew for the moment but right on the cusp). Chicago is consistently 2 crew and anything from IAD to BOS is two-crew. BNA is 2 crew in the summer as well I think.

Are there any eastern seaboard routes into London that US airlines operate 3 crew (IAD, JFK, BOS, PHL?) and are any of the layovers longer than the standard 24 hours besides routes that aren't daily? (LAX-LHR for example?)

Thanks!
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:36 pm

We occasionally did EWR-STN with 2.
 
timh4000
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:07 pm

Not a pilot, but it's been my belief that a third pilot is needed due to flying time, although I don't know the exact rules on that, and some airlines may feel safer with a 3rd pilot even if they are within 2 crew limits.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:17 pm

Some routes operate as 3-crew because the destination station doesn’t have extra crew in place, for example once a day service and the westbound flight time drives the requirement.

gf
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:43 pm

timh4000 wrote:
Not a pilot, but it's been my belief that a third pilot is needed due to flying time, although I don't know the exact rules on that, and some airlines may feel safer with a 3rd pilot even if they are within 2 crew limits.


Rostering a third or fourth pilot on a sector does indeed have to do with block time, and typically also with departure time. An 0800 departure will typically have a longer maximum duty time compared to a 0030 departure.

"some airlines may feel safer" has little to do with it. Airlines are not in the business of adding the additional cost of an augmented crew when it is not needed. As long as it satisfies legal requirements, satisfies rostering agreements, works with downroute staffing, and does not generate additional cost in the form of frequent disruption from fatigued pilots calling unfit, airlines will in most cases go with the minimum crew.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
dispatchguy
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:29 pm

My airline, an all-cargo carrier not subject to Part 117, up to 8 hours block time its a 2 pilot crew only. From 8+01 to 12+30 is 3 pilots, and from 12+31 to 16+00 its a 4 crew airplane. We currently dont have any contract provisions for flights scheduled beyond 16 hours of block time.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:08 pm

Many years ago (1990), TWA B767 JFK-ARN was two crew operation, but the return ARN-JFK was three crew because the flight time was over 8 hours. The third pilot sat in the cabin from JFK as a passenger and was not paid! for the outbound sector.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:06 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
The third pilot sat in the cabin from JFK as a passenger and was not paid! for the outbound sector.


Yikes! I'm guessing the guys sitting reserve got that one a lot?



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CosmicCruiser
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:41 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Some routes operate as 3-crew because the destination station doesn’t have extra crew in place, for example once a day service and the westbound flight time drives the requirement.
gf


For a while the 3rd guy on the EWR-STN leg was strictly to position a RFO in CDG.
 
Moosefire
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:32 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
Many years ago (1990), TWA B767 JFK-ARN was two crew operation, but the return ARN-JFK was three crew because the flight time was over 8 hours. The third pilot sat in the cabin from JFK as a passenger and was not paid! for the outbound sector.


He was certainly getting paid.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:24 pm

Moosefire wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
Many years ago (1990), TWA B767 JFK-ARN was two crew operation, but the return ARN-JFK was three crew because the flight time was over 8 hours. The third pilot sat in the cabin from JFK as a passenger and was not paid! for the outbound sector.


He was certainly getting paid.


I think what Tristarsteve meant is that he was not getting paid for the flight hours. Unpaid positioning like this is common on east-west pairings where the block time varies significantly. Because positioning is typically either unpaid or paid far less than for operating, it is cheaper for the airline to do it this way.


BTW it is "crew complement", not "crew compliment".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:05 am

The US standard is full pay and credit for deadheading, so if you need to send the third pilot to the downroute station, he might as well be part of the operating crew in both directions.

GF
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:22 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The US standard is full pay and credit for deadheading, so if you need to send the third pilot to the downroute station, he might as well be part of the operating crew in both directions.

GF

That's exactly what I was referring to. Positioning where I was whether D/Hing or operating is calculated in the pairing as full pay.

Another horror story of that other co. I referred to were weekend layovers. There was no extra pay so it was all on you. yuck.
 
VSMUT
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:32 am

CosmicCruiser wrote:
Another horror story of that other co. I referred to were weekend layovers. There was no extra pay so it was all on you. yuck.


I had that with a European cargo airline. Would return you to your base every Friday morning and just leave you to your own devices until Monday evening. They would change your base every 6-12 months, renting an apartment was impossible. 4 days/3 nights in a hotel every single week at own expense without salary, complete with early check-in and late check-out :mad:
 
BA777FO
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Re: US airline transatlantic crew compliments

Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:13 am

Starlionblue wrote:
BTW it is "crew complement", not "crew compliment".


Of course! Blame it on a two crew long haul ;)

Surprised that EWR-STN would be run as 3 crew. I feel cheated having to do ORD as 2 crew and sometimes MCO and ATL 2 crew. We've always had slightly stricter rules on long haul than EASA allows for but EASA really has presided over a watering down of safety regarding crew fatigue.

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