DALMD80
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737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:38 pm

We all know that the 737 MAX suffered from extra large engines that needed to be moved forward and have computer software installed in the plane to keep the plane safe to fly. But what could Boeing have done differently? Let's take a look.

*None of this is meant to bash Boeing, just to explore what could have happened.*

As we all know, the 737 orginally held turbojet engines on its wings. But with the introduction of the CFM-56, Boeing wanted to use that on the 737, but keep the same landing gear. The inlet was flattened, resulting in the much loved hamster inlet. This was Boeing's first engineering work-around. Then the CFM LEAP came along, and Boeing decided to put the newer, more efficient engine on a new model of the 737. The engine was moved forward and up to maintain sufficient ground clearance. This was the next work-around. But then, to keep the aircraft from stalling and crashing, Boeing installed MCAS, the Manuevering Characteristics Augmentation System, which was the 3rd and final work-around. This many work-arounds and cut corners resulted in the 2 MAX crashes. But what if Boeing had done what would have saved lives, and resulted in a much safer plane?

The Boeing 757 would have been perfect. Boeing could have asked CFM to make a more powerful version of the LEAP, which could then fit on the 757's much taller frame, known for long landing gear legs, with minimal repositioning. But why did Boeing make the MAX? To compete with the 757. But why make a dangerous 737 to compete with the 757 when you can use the 757 with different engines to compete with the 757? I think the 757 is the natural choice.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
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Stitch
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:51 pm

1) Anyone proposing a 757MAX should be banned for one month for low-quality posting. This topic is so done that penalties need to be applied to discourage people from continuing to bring it up.

2) Boeing could have saved lives and made a much safer plane if they had built the MAX with MCAS, but properly documented what it did in it's final form rather than an earlier form and eaten the penalties they had with customers to have them properly train pilots on how the system worked so they were not caught off-guard.

3) Boeing made the MAX to stay relevant against the A320neo. The 757 played zero role in their decision because the 757 is irrelevant in the marketplace thanks to the A321-200neo family and (to a lesser extent) the 737-9(00) and 737-10. The only operators flying 757s today are doing so because they're paid for and they can still find a handful of routes where the economics make sense. And those economics extend far beyond just fuel-burn, so new engines would not be an automatic panacea. New engines a fair bit more powerful then anything on a 737-10 or A321neowhatever, by the way, so CFM and/or PW would need to spend a fair bit on extending the LEAP and GTF to meet those power demands which means they will burn more fuel and need more maintenance than their smaller brethren on the MAX and neo, which is going to negatively impact those economics.
 
IADCA
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:56 pm

The end of 757 production and the advent of the LEAP (and similar) engines were so far separated in time as to render this discussion no longer than a few sentences. It would have been vastly easier to lengthen the gear on the 737 platform to accommodate the larger engines than it would be to restart the 757, essentially from scratch.

A 757 with LEAP engines would not be a competitive product in the modern market except for (maybe) a small niche of routes. It'd basically be an A321-sized fuselage but much, much heavier. In order to restart the "757" and make a product that could compete effectively today for new aircraft orders, you'd need to build a new production line (old one, including tooling, is gone) and design a vastly different new aircraft, including a higher-thrust model of LEAP than used on the 737. You'd basically end up redesigning the MAX-10 but with longer gear, higher-thrust engines, and a different nose after all the changes you'd need to make to get anything near a competitive product, and it would cost you billions to get there.
 
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Stitch
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:19 pm

The single-aisle versus dual-aisle angle aside, NMA is Boeing's answer to a "next generation" 757 and that frame is clearly struggling to close it's business case with both Boeing and potential customers. And this would be a new frame designed from the ground-up carrying none of the legacy baggage of the 757 platform.

So if a clean-sheet 757 can't seem to find a market, why do people believe a warmed-over 757 would?

I get the nostalgia and all, but seriously...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:41 pm

Actually the original 737-100 and -200 had TURBOFAN engines, look up JT8D engines. Hint: derivative the military J52 with a FAN section added. Hint, hint, “D” in P&W marketing means DUCT, as in fan duct around the core.

GF
 
DALMD80
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:38 pm

Huh. I didn't realize that an engine with such little room for a bypass duct could have one. Sorry about that. Also, Stitch, I didn't realize the topic was so done. I'd never seen anything like it.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 2 Wrights made an airplane, and look at the miracles we have today!
 
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Stitch
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:44 pm

DALMD80 wrote:
Also, Stitch, I didn't realize the topic was so done. I'd never seen anything like it.


Don't take my curmudgeonliness personally. :) It's just that it seems a week doesn't go by for the past decade where someone doesn't start a thread or make a comment in an existing thread on why Boeing should either never have cancelled the 757 or updated it. Pretty much every one of them doesn't understand the underlying reasons why airlines moved away from the 757 and how those reasons are ones that Boeing could not have addressed due to the underlying decisions that drove the frame's original design in the 1970s.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:00 am

Stitch wrote:
1) Anyone proposing a 757MAX should be banned for one month for low-quality posting. This topic is so done that penalties need to be applied to discourage people from continuing to bring it up.

2) Boeing could have saved lives and made a much safer plane if they had built the MAX with MCAS, but properly documented what it did in it's final form rather than an earlier form and eaten the penalties they had with customers to have them properly train pilots on how the system worked so they were not caught off-guard.

3) Boeing made the MAX to stay relevant against the A320neo. The 757 played zero role in their decision because the 757 is irrelevant in the marketplace thanks to the A321-200neo family and (to a lesser extent) the 737-9(00) and 737-10. The only operators flying 757s today are doing so because they're paid for and they can still find a handful of routes where the economics make sense. And those economics extend far beyond just fuel-burn, so new engines would not be an automatic panacea. New engines a fair bit more powerful then anything on a 737-10 or A321neowhatever, by the way, so CFM and/or PW would need to spend a fair bit on extending the LEAP and GTF to meet those power demands which means they will burn more fuel and need more maintenance than their smaller brethren on the MAX and neo, which is going to negatively impact those economics.


Thank you. If the 757 was so Purr-fect why did no airline order it for 5 years. When the orders stop, the line stops. What I don't understand is the lack of "bring back the A346!"

The 757 was designed to fly transcon when the in service planes couldn't do it. It is a great plane, but the 737NG does 90% of its capabilities at better economics, and the neo / max blew it out of the water. Now a great converted freighter. The tooling is gone, so it would probably be cheaper to open the NMA factory.
 
asr0dzjq
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:23 pm

Stitch wrote:
Anyone proposing a 757MAX should be banned for one month one trillion years for low-quality posting. This topic is so done that penalties need to be applied to discourage people from continuing to bring it up.

FTFY
As much as I would like to see a 757 Max, it's out of the question at this point.

Stitch wrote:
Boeing could have saved lives and made a much safer plane if they had built the MAX with MCAS, but properly documented what it did in it's final form rather than an earlier form and eaten the penalties they had with customers to have them properly train pilots on how the system worked so they were not caught off-guard.

True.

Stitch wrote:
Boeing made the MAX to stay relevant against the A320neo. The 757 played zero role in their decision because the 757 is irrelevant in the marketplace thanks to the A321-200neo family and (to a lesser extent) the 737-9(00) and 737-10. The only operators flying 757s today are doing so because they're paid for and they can still find a handful of routes where the economics make sense. And those economics extend far beyond just fuel-burn, so new engines would not be an automatic panacea. New engines a fair bit more powerful then anything on a 737-10 or A321neowhatever, by the way, so CFM and/or PW would need to spend a fair bit on extending the LEAP and GTF to meet those power demands which means they will burn more fuel and need more maintenance than their smaller brethren on the MAX and neo, which is going to negatively impact those economics.

How long will the 757 remain in service before all of them are scrapped/etc?
R.I.P.

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TWA (B 1-10-1930, D 1-12-2001)
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Sokes
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:50 am

I wonder why Boeing didn't make a B757 Max?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:01 am

Sokes wrote:
I wonder why Boeing didn't make a B757 Max?

Because no one was buying the 757.
 
Sokes
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:09 am

NameOmitted wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I wonder why Boeing didn't make a B757 Max?

Because no one was buying the 757.


I was just trying to make a joke.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11369
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Re: 737 MAX... A better Boeing plane to be re-engined

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:04 pm

Stitch wrote:
1) Anyone proposing a 757MAX should be banned for one month for low-quality posting. This topic is so done that penalties need to be applied to discourage people from continuing to bring it up.


At least they should come up with something new..... put the 737 wing on it or something.

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Thomas
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