Martinlest
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:54 pm

Concorde & engine startup?

Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:00 pm

I think I once knew this, but am now confused (trying out the amazing new Concorde in X-Plane!). So maybe someone can help.

Can Concorde start its engines without a GPU (there being no APU)? Assuming not (if so, how?), do - or, I should say, did :( - the pilots therefore have to start up one (or was it two?) engines whilst still at the gate? Or was the GPU moved with the a/c during pushback (??), and engine startup only began once away from the gate?

Thank you!
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:51 pm

I once started up a BA Concorde at ARN.
We started all four engines at the gate. Two airstarts were used, one on each side of the aircraft, as there is no cross bleed manifold.
The GPU is definitely needed and stays connected until the engines have accelerated to ground idle. There is an intermediate idle position where the air starts can be disconnected, but the GPU is required until ground idle is reached.
I don't think you could pushback before engine start, the logistics and safety precautions of moving a GPU and two Airstarts out onto the taxiway is something I would not like to see.
I had enough trouble controlling two airstart drivers using hand signals on the gate. (The noise on the ramp is enormous!!)

By the way, after pushback was complete, we disconnected the towbar. Then I removed the towbar adaptor that adapted the B747 towbar to fit the Concorde, and the flying engineer opened the R1 door and lowered a rope for me to attach it to!
BA only had 4 adaptors, and the aircraft was doing a lot of extra flying that week.
 
Martinlest
Topic Author
Posts: 64
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:38 pm

"the logistics and safety precautions of moving a GPU and two Airstarts out onto the taxiway is something I would not like to see." No, I didn't really think this was an option! :-)

So you would start all four engines before pushback? I imagined the most likely scenario would be pushback with engines 2 & 3 running and then start up 1 & 4, air and GPU disconnected of course, during the push? But you say that the GPU at least is needed until all 4 engines are running (unlike most other a/c where power for engine startup would come from the one or two already running).

Many thanks!
 
Max Q
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:14 am

Pretty sure Concorde had the ability to do cross bleed starts
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:00 am

Max Q wrote:
Pretty sure Concorde had the ability to do cross bleed starts


If this diagram and panel are to be believed, cross bleed start could only be done between engines on each wing. I don’t see a valve between left and right.

https://www.heritageconcorde.com/concor ... p-descript

Plus, holy crap, they used fuel to cool the conditioned air!
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Bellerophon
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:12 am

fr8mech

...cross bleed start could only be done between engines on each wing...

Correct.

Start 3 then 2 on the ramp, disconnect the aircarts, commence pushback and cross bleed start 4 (from 3) and 1 (from 2) during the pushback.

Any air moving across the ship usually came from the F/E. :tapedshut:

Best Regards

Bellerophon
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:23 am

Bellerophon,

Great to see your name! I followed your Concorde posts on PPRUNE, esp, the JFK 31L SID.

GF
 
Bellerophon
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:50 am

Martinlest

...Can Concorde start its engines without a GPU (there being no APU)?...

As you suspected, no. Two aircarts (one on each side) were required, although we could make do with one, but that then took much longer.


...did the pilots therefore have to start up...

Any Pilot daft enough to try starting a Concorde engine was likely to be suffering from a thick ear shortly thereafter, courtesy of the professional Flight Engineer sitting behind him whose job it was. :lol:

And besides, we couldn't reach the start switches, which were down low beside the F/E's knees.


...start up one (or was it two?) engines whilst still at the gate?...

Two (minimum, with at least one on each wing)


...Or was the GPU moved with the a/c during pushback...

Tristarsteve has already answered that one, and like him, I wouldn't have considered attempting it.

Best of luck on X-Plane

Bellerophon
 
shamrock137
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:57 pm

Bellerophon wrote:
Martinlest

...Can Concorde start its engines without a GPU (there being no APU)?...

As you suspected, no. Two aircarts (one on each side) were required, although we could make do with one, but that then took much longer.



Interesting it didn't have a cross bleed. doing some reading on the website mentioned above also shows that anti-ice was mostly electric, and not bleed air. With the delta wing, how sensitive was the aircraft when operating in icing conditions?
Time to spare? Go by air!
 
Okie
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:11 pm

shamrock137 wrote:
Interesting it didn't have a cross bleed. doing some reading on the website mentioned above also shows that anti-ice was mostly electric, and not bleed air. With the delta wing, how sensitive was the aircraft when operating in icing conditions?


Well she cruised at FL600 which is seriously dry and the surface temperature of the aircraft was 260°F. So I suspect what little time the aircraft spent in the icing regime during clime and decent that electric was the best choice either for weigh or complexity.

Bellerophon wrote:
Bellerophon

Good to see you are still contributing.

Okie
 
shamrock137
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:43 pm

Okie wrote:
shamrock137 wrote:
Interesting it didn't have a cross bleed. doing some reading on the website mentioned above also shows that anti-ice was mostly electric, and not bleed air. With the delta wing, how sensitive was the aircraft when operating in icing conditions?


Well she cruised at FL600 which is seriously dry and the surface temperature of the aircraft was 260°F. So I suspect what little time the aircraft spent in the icing regime during clime and decent that electric was the best choice either for weigh or complexity.


True, plus I imagine on an aircraft where speed is the priority you wouldn't want a complex bleed system taking power and causing increased fuel burn.
Time to spare? Go by air!
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 73
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:58 am

I’m young enough but also old enough to have had a UK secondary school prom back in 2013, and we held it in the then new Concorde hanger at MAN runway viewing park.

The party was held pretty much under the bird herself, it was the only venue big enough for all the students.
752 753 A332
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:04 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
I’m young enough but also old enough to have had a UK secondary school prom back in 2013, and we held it in the then new Concorde hanger at MAN runway viewing park.

The party was held pretty much under the bird herself, it was the only venue big enough for all the students.


Obligatory. ;)

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Max Q
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Re: Concorde & engine startup?

Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:11 am

I like the clarification


Now if only we could eliminate aircraftS
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.

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