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xms3200
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Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:48 am

I know KLM is one of the few airlines that specify having two nose wheel steering tillers on all their planes, even the ones that come standard with one like the 737, 757, 767. The only ones that come standard with two are the 747, 777 & 787. Any other airlines have two tillers.

Thanks in advance.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:59 am

The ex-SQ 757s had two tillers (removed by Delta).
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
alpine1989
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:11 am

Transavia B757. KLM influence or Dutch CAA?
 
VHTAE
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:07 am

Anybody have a picture it’ll be interesting to see it..
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:23 am

British Airways has 2 tillers on aircraft where that’s an option.

Best Regards
CROSSWIND
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:40 am

In airplanes that have dual tillers, are they mechanically or artificially connected somehow to mimic the force applied to the opposite side?
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
a320fan
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:03 am

CX is one that often comes up as having FOs taxi the aircraft when pilot flying.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:10 am

Every EK Aircraft I’ve flown has had tillers both sides.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:07 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
In airplanes that have dual tillers, are they mechanically or artificially connected somehow to mimic the force applied to the opposite side?


Boeings (up to the 777, not sure about the 787) have cables that run up from the gear to provide feedback on the nose wheel angle. The tillers operate the steering hydraulic valves directly IIRC.
Airbus tillers, as per their FBW philosophy, are purely electrical controls and are not backdriven.

Both work well when you get used to them.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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FlySail2015
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:49 am

Of all the airliners my dad had flown in his career (JetBlue A320/321, TWA 727-200, TWA 747-100/200, Focus Air Cargo 747-200F/300F, TWA 757-200, TransMeridian Airlines 757-200, TWA 767-200/300, TWA L-1011, and TWA MD-80), all the JetBlue Airbuses and some of the TransMeridian 757s had two tillers. However, the airlines that had airplanes with two tillers still had it in their SOPs that only the Captain taxied anyway. I don't know about the tiller linkage on the 757, but the A320's tillers are fly-by-wire, just like the rest of the flight controls, so the actuation of one tiller did not move the other.

Additionally, on the C-17 that I fly, we also have dual tillers and they are mechanically linked together. On my E170, only the CA has one.

Hope this helps!
 
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zeke
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:56 am

xms3200 wrote:
Any other airlines have two tillers..


All Airbus FBW have two, all A220/A320/A330/A340/A350/A380 series.
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KFTG
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:16 am

National has them on their 757s:



Yakutia has dual tillers on some of their 757s:



I've also seen dual tiller setup on 737NG, I believe it was a BBJ.
 
mmo
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:20 am

Most aircraft now come with 2 tillers. I can't remember about the 727, but the A320, 757, 747 (all series), DC-10, 777 and 787 all have tillers for both sides. I would imagine the entire Airbus family has 2 tillers just like the Boeing family of aircraft.
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MartijnNL
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:58 am

What are nose wheel steering tillers? I see two pictures of sun blocking screens. Are these called tillers? I don’t get it.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:03 am

MartijnNL wrote:
What are nose wheel steering tillers? I see two pictures of sun blocking screens. Are these called tillers? I don’t get it.


A tiller is used to steer a boat.

Like many aviation terms, it's borrowed from sailing. It's a wheel or handle used to turn the nose wheel in order to steer the plane while taxiing.
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zeke
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:10 am

MartijnNL wrote:
What are nose wheel steering tillers? I see two pictures of sun blocking screens. Are these called tillers? I don’t get it.


They are used for large changes in direction at low speeds on the ground like turning onto a bay, lining up in the runway, 90 taxi turns.

Otherwise rudder pedals are used to maintain direction.
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f4f3a
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:13 am

In the old days when there was a mechanical link providing the co pilot with a tiller it was usually a cost option therefore many airlines didn’t take it . It also wasn’t usually as accurate/ easy to use as the captains . Now aircraft have fly by wire the control is the same .
 
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xms3200
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:44 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
Every EK Aircraft I’ve flown has had tillers both sides.


All the planes that Emirates flies come standard with 2 tillers...unlike the DC-10, 757, 767, 737
 
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xms3200
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:56 pm

FlySail2015 wrote:
Of all the airliners my dad had flown in his career (JetBlue A320/321, TWA 727-200, TWA 747-100/200, Focus Air Cargo 747-200F/300F, TWA 757-200, TransMeridian Airlines 757-200, TWA 767-200/300, TWA L-1011, and TWA MD-80), all the JetBlue Airbuses and some of the TransMeridian 757s had two tillers. However, the airlines that had airplanes with two tillers still had it in their SOPs that only the Captain taxied anyway. I don't know about the tiller linkage on the 757, but the A320's tillers are fly-by-wire, just like the rest of the flight controls, so the actuation of one tiller did not move the other.

Additionally, on the C-17 that I fly, we also have dual tillers and they are mechanically linked together. On my E170, only the CA has one.

Hope this helps!


TWA 757-231's & 767-231's have only one tiller. There is a pic on this site of a factory TWA 767 with only one tiller.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:44 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
In airplanes that have dual tillers, are they mechanically or artificially connected somehow to mimic the force applied to the opposite side?


IIRC, there is a sprocket added to the bottom of the Captain's tiller and a chain runs across the forward E/E bay to the F/O's tiller. I don't recall any kind of breakout mechanism or clutch.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:48 pm

alpine1989 wrote:
Transavia B757. KLM influence or Dutch CAA?


KFTG wrote:

Yakutia has dual tillers on some of their 757s:





That plane was originally Air Holland. Might be a Dutch CAA thing.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:36 am

MartijnNL wrote:
What are nose wheel steering tillers? I see two pictures of sun blocking screens. Are these called tillers? I don’t get it.


If you look under the pillars between the windshield and the side window, you'll see a handle-like device. That's the tiller.

You can see an Airbus tiller to the left of the captain's sidestick here.

Image
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:09 pm

Right hand NWS has been an option on Boeings since the 707 days as an option. Even the original 737-200 offered it as an option. More often than not it was seen on carriers outside the US. It became standard on the 747-100 and subsequent 747s followed by the 777,787. Option on the 757/767 as well.
 
Max Q
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:34 am

I believe some airlines actually installed a locked box over the right hand tillers on the 747 to prevent the dangers of the FO taxiing the aircraft..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:40 am

Max Q wrote:
I believe some airlines actually installed a locked box over the right hand tillers on the 747 to prevent the dangers of the FO taxiing the aircraft..


:rotfl:

Yeah some of those FOs are a danger to navigation. :D
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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FlySail2015
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:05 am

xms3200 wrote:
FlySail2015 wrote:
Of all the airliners my dad had flown in his career (JetBlue A320/321, TWA 727-200, TWA 747-100/200, Focus Air Cargo 747-200F/300F, TWA 757-200, TransMeridian Airlines 757-200, TWA 767-200/300, TWA L-1011, and TWA MD-80), all the JetBlue Airbuses and some of the TransMeridian 757s had two tillers. However, the airlines that had airplanes with two tillers still had it in their SOPs that only the Captain taxied anyway. I don't know about the tiller linkage on the 757, but the A320's tillers are fly-by-wire, just like the rest of the flight controls, so the actuation of one tiller did not move the other.

Additionally, on the C-17 that I fly, we also have dual tillers and they are mechanically linked together. On my E170, only the CA has one.

Hope this helps!


TWA 757-231's & 767-231's have only one tiller. There is a pic on this site of a factory TWA 767 with only one tiller.


Correct. I said the only airline/airplanes he flew with two were the 757s from TransMeridian and the A320/321s from JetBlue. No TWA airplanes.
 
Max Q
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:12 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Max Q wrote:
I believe some airlines actually installed a locked box over the right hand tillers on the 747 to prevent the dangers of the FO taxiing the aircraft..


:rotfl:

Yeah some of those FOs are a danger to navigation. :D



Seriously

I believe Cathay was one of these operators,
old school to the T, they had an incident where the FO landed a Classic with a Captain that had passed out


This FO did a fine job of the landing (as normal) and was able to take a high speed exit using rudder pedal steering and some differential braking


Then, knowing the companies strict prohibition on FO’s taxiing and having his access to a tiller ‘locked away’ he shut down all four engines and called for a tug


At Kai Tak that snarled things up for a while


Never understood this attitude of Captains only taxiing, bizarre, I mean if you can fly it..


And all aircraft should have a tiller on both sides, mandatory, its really another part of the control system, that should be duplicated


Took me 19 years after getting hired to get to my first airline left seat, that was on the 757/ 67


On my final check with the FAA we were in a 757-300, a long sucker indeed and I was being super cautious taxiing


Finally the Fed spoke up and said ‘you know it’s ok to taxi over 5 knots’

As I looked down at the map to check my groundspeed I noticed he was right while replying ‘I haven’t taxied an aircraft in 19 years’


And that was true
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:10 pm

Max Q wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Max Q wrote:
I believe some airlines actually installed a locked box over the right hand tillers on the 747 to prevent the dangers of the FO taxiing the aircraft..


:rotfl:

Yeah some of those FOs are a danger to navigation. :D



Seriously

I believe Cathay was one of these operators,
old school to the T, they had an incident where the FO landed a Classic with a Captain that had passed out


This FO did a fine job of the landing (as normal) and was able to take a high speed exit using rudder pedal steering and some differential braking


Then, knowing the companies strict prohibition on FO’s taxiing and having his access to a tiller ‘locked away’ he shut down all four engines and called for a tug


At Kai Tak that snarled things up for a while


Never understood this attitude of Captains only taxiing, bizarre, I mean if you can fly it..


And all aircraft should have a tiller on both sides, mandatory, its really another part of the control system, that should be duplicated


Took me 19 years after getting hired to get to my first airline left seat, that was on the 757/ 67


On my final check with the FAA we were in a 757-300, a long sucker indeed and I was being super cautious taxiing


Finally the Fed spoke up and said ‘you know it’s ok to taxi over 5 knots’

As I looked down at the map to check my groundspeed I noticed he was right while replying ‘I haven’t taxied an aircraft in 19 years’


And that was true


Similar story on United a few years ago, (I believe it was - I cant find the article now). Captain dies in flight, an air force KC-135 pilot in the back assists the FO with working the radios and reading checklists. I think they landed in GEG or BOI, but the FO landed and stopped the plane on the runway as she wasn't taxi qualified in that aircraft.

Seems like such a small detail, but it is odd every other control is duplicated except for nose wheel steering.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
Max Q
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:12 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

:rotfl:

Yeah some of those FOs are a danger to navigation. :D



Seriously

I believe Cathay was one of these operators,
old school to the T, they had an incident where the FO landed a Classic with a Captain that had passed out


This FO did a fine job of the landing (as normal) and was able to take a high speed exit using rudder pedal steering and some differential braking


Then, knowing the companies strict prohibition on FO’s taxiing and having his access to a tiller ‘locked away’ he shut down all four engines and called for a tug


At Kai Tak that snarled things up for a while


Never understood this attitude of Captains only taxiing, bizarre, I mean if you can fly it..


And all aircraft should have a tiller on both sides, mandatory, its really another part of the control system, that should be duplicated


Took me 19 years after getting hired to get to my first airline left seat, that was on the 757/ 67


On my final check with the FAA we were in a 757-300, a long sucker indeed and I was being super cautious taxiing


Finally the Fed spoke up and said ‘you know it’s ok to taxi over 5 knots’

As I looked down at the map to check my groundspeed I noticed he was right while replying ‘I haven’t taxied an aircraft in 19 years’


And that was true


Similar story on United a few years ago, (I believe it was - I cant find the article now). Captain dies in flight, an air force KC-135 pilot in the back assists the FO with working the radios and reading checklists. I think they landed in GEG or BOI, but the FO landed and stopped the plane on the runway as she wasn't taxi qualified in that aircraft.

Seems like such a small detail, but it is odd every other control is duplicated except for nose wheel steering.



It is,

I think you’ll see all new clean sheet aircraft equipped with a tiller on both sides now
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
strfyr51
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:48 pm

KFTG wrote:
National has them on their 757s:



Yakutia has dual tillers on some of their 757s:



I've also seen dual tiller setup on 737NG, I believe it was a BBJ.

that is a 757-236, an ev-British Airlines airplane, does National have al 757-236's?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:16 am

Max Q wrote:
I believe some airlines actually installed a locked box over the right hand tillers on the 747 to prevent the dangers of the FO taxiing the aircraft..


Why would that be dangerous? Even mechanics can be trained to taxi the aircraft. I wouldn't think it would be an issue for an actual pilot. Some very strange ideas in aviation.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:54 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Max Q wrote:
I believe some airlines actually installed a locked box over the right hand tillers on the 747 to prevent the dangers of the FO taxiing the aircraft..


Why would that be dangerous? Even mechanics can be trained to taxi the aircraft. I wouldn't think it would be an issue for an actual pilot. Some very strange ideas in aviation.

I assumed he was being sarcastic about the dangerous part.
Captain Kevin
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:31 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why would that be dangerous? Even mechanics can be trained to taxi the aircraft.


Probably a training thing. You don't have to provide initial/recurrent training for right seat taxi if only a few planes have it.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:04 am

DL_Mech wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Why would that be dangerous? Even mechanics can be trained to taxi the aircraft.


Probably a training thing. You don't have to provide initial/recurrent training for right seat taxi if only a few planes have it.


The only training I received for taxi was "be gentle and smooth". :D

Ok, I exaggerate, but I get the impression that the only way to learn to taxi is to go out and practice. And the sim doesn't really prepare you since the plane feels quite different. The sim doesn't simulate (heh....) the way any tiny variation in incline and surface composition makes a rather big difference.
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BravoOne
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:07 pm

I think the overriding issue regarding F/O's taxing that there are so many minutes avalable a sim sesson and and no matter how you cut it you burn up 15+ minutes of time teaching this subject. These minues could be be better spent on other maneuvers. It's not a big deal, but it does use up time. Something like MCAS failures comets mind.
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:17 pm

Maybe it's an insurance thing too? I know a few airlines that allows the FO to taxi from engine start all the way back to the final turn onto stand after the flight, but the captain has to make the final turn and park it.
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Max Q
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:39 pm

TOGA10 wrote:
Maybe it's an insurance thing too? I know a few airlines that allows the FO to taxi from engine start all the way back to the final turn onto stand after the flight, but the captain has to make the final turn and park it.



That’s because most automated guide in and stop indicators are designed and calibrated to be viewed from the left seat
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:38 pm

Max Q wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
Maybe it's an insurance thing too? I know a few airlines that allows the FO to taxi from engine start all the way back to the final turn onto stand after the flight, but the captain has to make the final turn and park it.



That’s because most automated guide in and stop indicators are designed and calibrated to be viewed from the left seat


And manual guide in. We would have no way of knowing who is controlling the steering. We always place ourselves to the captain's left of the lead in line if we don't have room to go straight back. This would place the marshaller out of view of the first officer seat.
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HAWK21M
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:52 am

How is the interconnect of both tillers on the B757s done.
Which side has the overriding capability.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
BravoOne
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:24 pm

HAWK21M wrote:
How is the interconnect of both tillers on the B757s done.
Which side has the overriding capability.


There is no override capability. Whom ever has the most muscle wins
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:49 am

With FBW aircraft, why couldn't you just design a ground mode and have the control column or joystick replace the tiller for maneuvering?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:01 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
With FBW aircraft, why couldn't you just design a ground mode and have the control column or joystick replace the tiller for maneuvering?


Heh. Interesting idea. However...
- Tilting the stick might not feel very natural, though I suppose muscle memory could be developed.
- Primarily though, you would have to implement a host of protected logic to ensure the stick/yoke only does what it is supposed to do at any given time. Example, you're coming off the runway onto a high speed exit. At what point does the stick stop controlling the flight surfaces and start controlling the nosewheel steering?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:34 am

BravoOne wrote:
HAWK21M wrote:
How is the interconnect of both tillers on the B757s done.
Which side has the overriding capability.


There is no override capability. Whom ever has the most muscle wins

How do you cater to mechanical jamming...is there an overide
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:42 am

HAWK21M wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
HAWK21M wrote:
How is the interconnect of both tillers on the B757s done.
Which side has the overriding capability.


There is no override capability. Whom ever has the most muscle wins

How do you cater to mechanical jamming...is there an overide


Both the stick/yoke and the tiller on FBW have only electrical connections. There is no mechanical connection to the surfaces/steering.

Mechanical jamming would be dealt with in the same way as sidestick issues are dealt with on Airbus. Hold the instinctive disconnect button on the stick to lock out the other one.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:29 pm

My point of reference was the 757/767/
 
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HAWK21M
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:18 pm

B757 has mechanical cable controlled and hydraulically operated mechanism from the tiller there is no FBW
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:12 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
What are nose wheel steering tillers? I see two pictures of sun blocking screens. Are these called tillers? I don’t get it.


If you look under the pillars between the windshield and the side window, you'll see a handle-like device. That's the tiller.

You can see an Airbus tiller to the left of the captain's sidestick here.

Image


Tks for the pic and clarification.

For the record i was flying jump seat in a Varig flight MAD-GRU in 1999 and there was such a thing in both sides.
Clearly remember Pilot and 1st Officer using it while taxiing in/out.
It was onboard a 767, don't remember if it was a -200ER or a -300ER but i'm positive it was a 767.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Airlines with 2 nose wheel tillers

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:23 pm

Both the 767-200 and -300 have optional right side tillers. How the crews use them is determined by their operating procedures. Ditto for the 737, 727, 707 as they all had optional right hand tillers, albeit not seen as frequently as today. 747, 777, 787 have tillers as standard equipment.

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos