leghorn
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Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:32 pm

Are there (m)any smaller airports used by LCCs where pushback isn't done i.e. plane lands, goes to the apron at the terminal, opens doors, stairs wheeled up to plane, passengers deboard, next passengers board, starts engines and then proceeds to the runway under own power without ever having been pushed back by tug or under its own power by reversing thrust.
Does pushback introduce a major delay and is it included in the ground handling bill? Obviously the apron would need to be larger and the airport quieter.
Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo fixed
 
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VS4ever
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Re: avoiding pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:43 pm

leghorn wrote:
Are there (m)any smaller airports used by LCCs where pushback isn't done i.e. plane lands, goes to the apron at the terminal, opens doors, stairs wheeled up to plane, passengers deboard, next passengers board, starts engines and then proceeds to the runway under own power without ever having been pushed back by tug or under its own power by reversing thrust.
Does pushback introduce a major delay and is it included in the ground handling bill? Obviously the apron would need to be larger and the airport quieter.


It’s neither an LCC or a smaller airport. But this is done at AMS by KLM for their cityflyer operation, it does exactly what you describe above. I did it a couple of years ago for a connecting flight from AMS to BHX, apart from the bus ride out to the apron area, it worked exceedingly well. I kind of likened it to a bus station operation, as there were a number of pads available to do this. The only unfortunate issue is an inclement weather one as the 2nd bus load of passengers found out when they got soaked in a rain storm. On the first bus we missed it by just a few minutes.
Last edited by VS4ever on Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jetblastdubai
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Re: avoiding pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:32 pm

leghorn wrote:
Are there (m)any smaller airports used by LCCs where pushback isn't done...


https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8473037 ... a=!3m1!1e3

Lincoln (LNK) has a setup with super-long jetbridges that allow the RJs to taxi in, dock and then taxi away under their own power without needing a pushback. Much more efficient and less costly but it takes a large ramp to make it work.

Allegient is the only mainline that flies into LNK and I'm not sure if they're able to do the same or not but the jetbridges swing back quite a ways so it might be possible.
 
ManiaMuse
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Re: avoiding pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:40 pm

Something like this you mean? (Chambery airport back in 2013, small airport in the French Alps but busy on transfer days during the ski season and takes aircraft up to 757-200 size).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nR0GoPkpi8

How's this for a Kai Tak approach? Shows the turning round to park at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47fjpw3AOU0

I guess it depends on the nature and size of the airport. Not sure if it's the necessarily the most space effective solution as the planes had to park diagonally to turn around. In fact it looks like more recently they have changed to a more conventional parking layout with push-back tugs as the airport has gotten busier.

(Same approach but from 2019 with more normal parking layout)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j6RK49j8z8
 
paullam
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:41 pm

You can witness the same at Germany’s Paderborn airport or even in Frankfurt, both featuring a couple of jetbridge positions without the need for a pushback.
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mjoelnir
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Re: avoiding pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:43 pm

I do not know about a delay. I shortly ago made a trip without luggage using easyJet and Wizz KEF-LTN-LIS and back. In every case the push back truck was already hooked up when I boarded and the packed planes left on time.
 
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CPS001
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:07 pm

FRA does this at a bunch of remote stands and even a couple of contact gates. On the remote stands, everything from CRJs to 747s taxi out on their own power.
 
Bongodog49
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:31 pm

leghorn wrote:
Are there (m)any smaller airports used by LCCs where pushback isn't done i.e. plane lands, goes to the apron at the terminal, opens doors, stairs wheeled up to plane, passengers deboard, next passengers board, starts engines and then proceeds to the runway under own power without ever having been pushed back by tug or under its own power by reversing thrust.
Does pushback introduce a major delay and is it included in the ground handling bill? Obviously the apron would need to be larger and the airport quieter.



LCY doesn't have pushback, every plane taxies in and does a approx 115 turn before stopping. It is quite amazing to see just how tight E190's etc can turn.

LCY is very short of space, so space isn't a huge factor in not using a pushback system, the one thing however that dictates the system used is that you have to use pushback if you want to have airbridges
 
bananaboy
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:51 pm

Pula in Croatia for sure. This also happens at many of the Greek Island airports.

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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:59 pm

Then, there’s the unrequired pushback. At Brasilia on an empty ramp the size of a small city, tug shows up to push our Global. I wave them off, then some heated Portuguese is spoken. Handler explains, pushback is $600 but the fine for violating the rules and powering off on our own is $2000. Which will it be? Tempting to say, only in Brazil, but I encountered the same nonsense at Tenerife North a year or two later. So, costs money AND causes delays for some.

GF
 
leghorn
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:05 pm

Is there much of a delay waiting for pushback for inexplicable reasons?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:10 pm

At a lot of secondary regional airports in Europe you just pull up parallel to the terminal, passenger doors facing inwards. Quite often they will even marshall you into this unofficial position, blocking multiple marked stands. The joys of flying into uncongested airports!

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then, there’s the unrequired pushback. At Brasilia on an empty ramp the size of a small city, tug shows up to push our Global. I wave them off, then some heated Portuguese is spoken. Handler explains, pushback is $600 but the fine for violating the rules and powering off on our own is $2000. Which will it be? Tempting to say, only in Brazil, but I encountered the same nonsense at Tenerife North a year or two later. So, costs money AND causes delays for some.

GF


Oh believe me, this is becoming really common. It is the rule rather than the exception nowadays.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:46 pm

I think you're limiting the discussion to only LCC and/or small airports? But for a historical prospective there were many "Bus" gates at the large airports in Asia back in 90's and first decade of 2000. NRT was one of them. Then of course back then in the 90's the DC-9s and B-727s didn't need tugs at many airports like DTW. They just powered back.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:13 pm

leghorn wrote:
Is there much of a delay waiting for pushback for inexplicable reasons?


It happens. The tug might be late from another job. Once you have a tug and are ready, pushbash would typically only be delayed if there's someone blocking you.
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AirKevin
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:38 pm

Not really LCC, but at CMI, gate 2, plane pulls up, jetway gets put in place. When it's time to go, jetway gets pulled, engines started, plane taxis out.
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ytib
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:22 am

There are a few airports in Alaska which do this type of operation. (CDV, YAK, PSG and WRG)
They get two flights a day on Alaska Air with 737 equipment.

In Anchorage a lot of the 747's which flow through also park in places on the ramp where they can just taxi out as well. This is not the case with the UPS or FedEx operations there however.
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:52 am

We often parked three jets around a jetway without using push-back tugs. It worked as long as the middle one wasn’t the first to leave due to delays.

Look at some early terminal designs at LAX IINM there were a couple that parked DC8s and 707s parallel to the building until they needed more gates.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:05 am

exFWAOONW wrote:
We often parked three jets around a jetway without using push-back tugs. It worked as long as the middle one wasn’t the first to leave due to delays.

Look at some early terminal designs at LAX IINM there were a couple that parked DC8s and 707s parallel to the building until they needed more gates.


Many older terminals that have been repurposed a bunch over the years have a pull-through gate or two. ORD has one or two on the end of G, for instance.
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basspaul
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then, there’s the unrequired pushback. At Brasilia on an empty ramp the size of a small city, tug shows up to push our Global. I wave them off, then some heated Portuguese is spoken. Handler explains, pushback is $600 but the fine for violating the rules and powering off on our own is $2000. Which will it be? Tempting to say, only in Brazil, but I encountered the same nonsense at Tenerife North a year or two later. So, costs money AND causes delays for some.

GF


Just state that your tow bar provisions are damaged and INOP. Unless they have tow bar less tugs, they shouldn't be questioning the captain ;)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:16 pm

They know better than that!
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Avoiding Pushback

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:28 pm

leghorn wrote:
Is there much of a delay waiting for pushback for inexplicable reasons?

Of course, the people doing push-backs are human. Never know when the urge will hit; forgot to call the people to do the push-back/they didn't hear the phone ring; talking to that cute F/A; Ground Control hold for another A/C; Flight crew dealing with a fault/item on the departure check-list; push-back tug needs fuel; the tow-bar that was at that gate yesterday can't be found; and a few others specific to that particular location. It happens. On a good day, everyone and everything is in place, at the right time, ready to go.

I Have no hard numbers on actual performance. I do know, when I worked there was a delay code specifically for this, along with about 30 others. It is tracked (if at all) by the individual airlines, not by any airport or governmental aviation authorities that I know of.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?

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