WPvsMW
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

"Overtime" flight hours

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:19 pm

Overtime can be paid to pilots, like other employees.... but are "overtime flight hours" ever logged? TMK, not possible in the U.S., but under other certificating authorities, is it possible?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:50 pm

They must be logged and can not exceed the Part 117 flight time limits. Are you thinking of overtime flying for pay in excess of the scheduled line? Average line value is usually around 75 hours of pay and credit, so a pilot might take a trip for an extra 8 hours and exceed any of the FAA flight time limits. The 8 hours, depending on contract could paid at a premium rate.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:32 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Overtime can be paid to pilots, like other employees.... but are "overtime flight hours" ever logged? TMK, not possible in the U.S., but under other certificating authorities, is it possible?


As GalaxyFlyer says, there's a difference between overtime as per the contract and overtime as per flight time limitations.

We cannot exceed the legal flight time limitations, e.g. 100 block hours per rolling month. However, we can exceed the overtime threshold, e.g. 80 hours per calendar month. All that happens is that the hours beyond the threshold are paid at a higher hourly rate.

Also, "pay hours" may not be the same as block hours. For example, you might get 1.2 "pay hours" for every block hour when flying two crew, but only 1.1 when flying three crew. And don't forget simulator hours. When doing recurrent training you might get 3 "pay hours" for a 4 hours sim with 1½ hours of briefing and debriefing.

The "pay hours" are thus related to block hours, but not exactly corresponding.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
WPvsMW
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:42 am

Thanks... GF and Sb. You expressed the distinction between "pay hours" and "block hours" better than I could. In the US, I know the monthly "block hours" cannot be exceeded, and now understand a line pilot's accepting block hours over the "line threshold" and up to be "block hours limit" each month (or rolling 30 day window/) triggers premium pay for such hours. Thanks also for the "equations" relating recurrent training to pay hours.

The other part of my question is whether EASA, CAAC, JCAB, and their respective certificated carriers take the same approach.... the bright line "block hours per period" and the operator/pilot contract-based threshold for premium pay. In particular, I'm curious about how GCAA in the UAE and EK "get along".
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:55 am

The champs that I know are DL and WN. DL has green slips which are basically double time for pay and credit and only flight hours for the FAA. It’s not unusual for pilots to knock out 120-150 hours for pay. The A350 was famous and the first year had some captains closing in on $1 million dollar years. It’s a complicated system and senior guys who know how to play it can make out.
 
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zeke
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:41 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Overtime can be paid to pilots, like other employees.... but are "overtime flight hours" ever logged? TMK, not possible in the U.S., but under other certificating authorities, is it possible?


There is 3 different “flight times”

First is what the aircraft does, total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.

Then comes to logging the aircraft flight time depends on the role the operator assigned the pilot for the flight and the type of licence held. Some regulators fir example would require the PIC to log all the aircraft flight time even when they are not at the controls while relief pilots depending on the regulator only time physically spent at the controls.

This is why pilots have both flight time limits (lints on the hours they have logged), and flight duty time, flight duty time typically starts 1 hour before the schedule departure time and finishes 30 minutes after blocks on.

Say a flight has a schedule flight time of 12 hours, on a particular day the aircraft was delayed 30 minutes on departure due bad weather, and the flight time was 12:30, 30 minutes longer due to airspace closure and a different route.

The actual flight time is 12:30, the two relief pilots were at the controls for only 5:45, the non relief co-pilot at the controls for 6:45 (they are also in the control seat for takeoff and landing).

Everywhere I know would have the PIC logging 12:30, and some jurisdictions would only have the relief pilots log 5:45 hours, and the co-pilot 12:30.

The flight duty time would be 60 min (preflight) + 00:30 (delay) + 12:30 ( actual flight time) + 00:30 (post flight)=14:30 total flight duty period.

Lastly there is flight time for pay. Some airlines the clock starts at sign on before departure, some it’s the schedule departure, others it’s the actual departure. It comes down to the contract. The flight hours may then extend to when the aircraft comes to a stop at the gate at the end of a flight, others may extend to sign off, normally 30 minutes after the aircraft blocks on. Some contracts will pay flight pay from before the first sector for the day all the way to blacks on after the last sector.

So flight pay on the payslip may have no resemblance to flight time logged.

How overtime is determined varies between contracts, some contracts start paying overtime when flight time exceeds 8 hours (normal maximum 2 crew single sector), some based off rolling 4 weeks or Calender month total, sine based upon the rolling 365 or Calender 12 months.
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WPvsMW
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:48 am

I knew the scheme was complicated... more complicated than I thought (but I never worked in HR).
Now I know what green slips are.
Thanks for the replies.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:53 am

WPvsMW wrote:
I knew the scheme was complicated... more complicated than I thought (but I never worked in HR).
Now I know what green slips are.
Thanks for the replies.


Complicated is right. Flight time limitations and pay intricacies often seem more complex than the actual job. :D

We even have an app to help us work out flight time limitations.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:29 pm

Green slips are the Holy Grail at Delta, and over the years have had a tremendous impact on final average annual earnings for those that participate in the scheme.
 
Woodreau
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:56 pm

At my airline “overtime” hours are simply credit hours over the minimum guarantee of 72 hours.

It has nothing to do with actual flight time flown.

There are plenty of pilots who credit 140-160 hours a month. So they are paid their 72 normal hours and then paid 68-88 “overtime” hours. All while having flown maybe only 30 total flight hours or 80 hours or 100 hours. There is no way to know unless you look at the specific pay sheet and pilot contract provisions.

Regular hours and overtime hours are simply an HR construct to calculate pilot pay and have no meaning in terms of flight time and duty time legality.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
WPvsMW
Topic Author
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:16 am

BravoOne wrote:
Green slips are the Holy Grail at Delta, and over the years have had a tremendous impact on final average annual earnings for those that participate in the scheme.


I infer that "final average hours" are a primary factor in pension calculation. ??
 
BravoOne
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:21 pm

Final avergae earnings over the last three years of your career but, having said that the defined benefit has been eliminated at most all US airlines. Perhaps AA still has it?

There were several ways to pump up your numbers. Obviously flying max hours allowed was one. Selling back your vacation was another. Six weeks and you could sell back three weeks. The Green slip was and still is the almighty avenue to bump your final avaerage earnings. This was a seniority driven option so if you were not senior in your category your chances of participating were were deminished. Years ago the highest paid pilot was some MD88 Captain simply because that's where them green slips were being offered.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: "Overtime" flight hours

Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:39 pm

At my carrier, any open time trips must pay at 150%, and depending on need, may pay 200%. You can swap your schedule around some, but it's not easy to do so. But when you pick up an extra trip from open time, you know you're at least making 150% pay. Our flight duty time starts 45 minutes prior to departure and ends 15 minutes after arrival. Generally speaking, the company will allow you to pick up to within close to the legal limits of flight and duty times, as it allows them to staff flying without using a reserve.
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