ltbewr
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Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:46 pm

In some jobs, like for a law enforcement officer, an applicant must go through some form of psychological and mental health review and testing as part of the application process. For Law enforcement, it is to keep out those that are not of the proper psychological makeup that would put themselves and the public at risk. I wonder if there is such a requirement to get a commercial airline pilot's license. I realize that various laws limit such reviews in most forms of employment, but with the risk of killing 100's, it may be necessary.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:02 pm

Some of the finest pilots I have known would certainly fail most of this kind of testing . Probably make for a very unsafe operation in the end. But just put your mind rest, airlines do various kinds of pre employment evaluations. Structured interviews, written tests, MMPPI comes to mind along with at least one well known airline that used Physcologist for awhile.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:34 pm

And the US police record is so great! Suicide, divorce, substance abuse rates higher than the normal population.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:56 pm

Watch the film Ad Astra (Brad Pitt, excellent performance) for the future of psych checks and pilots/astronauts.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:14 am

There is no such requirement to get a license. However, a typical airline interview includes some form of psychological testing. I had to do a group exercise and a computerised psychological test. The interviews, both with recruiting and flight operations, are not formally psych evals, but obviously that is part of it.

Given how "personal" flying is in terms of face-to-face contact with instructors, checkers and line crew, you are also continuously being informally evaluated. If anyone is behaving "oddly", it tends to be noticed.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tu204
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:08 am

I hold a Canadian Class 1 and Russian Class 1 Aviation medical.

On the Canadian medical there is no test, on the Russian, the first time you apply and I believe every 3 or 5 years thereafter + if you had some head trauma since last medical you have a fun 1,5hour computer based test where a shrink is monitoring you.
First part is logic (compass test), second is reaction (ball goes from left to right or right to left across the screen with different velocities and you gotta hit the space-bar when it is in the middle), third...I dunno attention? A full screen full of "c" but the "open" side turned different directions and you have to mark off the ones that are pointing a certain direction.
These are time limited.

And last but not least a nice 350 questionnaire with "Yes", "No", "Not sure" as your possible answers.
Questions along the lines of:
"I usually help those in need"
"If someone hurts me, I want to hurt them back"
"I think people talk about me behind my back"
And shit like that. And a bunch of the questions are the same, just asked a bit differently.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:44 pm

The CBT sounds like a form of Meyers-Briggs assessment. Too many answers not compatible with __fill in the blank__ and I bet you are invited to a re-education camp.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:01 pm

tu204 wrote:
I hold a Canadian Class 1 and Russian Class 1 Aviation medical.

On the Canadian medical there is no test, on the Russian, the first time you apply and I believe every 3 or 5 years thereafter + if you had some head trauma since last medical you have a fun 1,5hour computer based test where a shrink is monitoring you.
First part is logic (compass test), second is reaction (ball goes from left to right or right to left across the screen with different velocities and you gotta hit the space-bar when it is in the middle), third...I dunno attention? A full screen full of "c" but the "open" side turned different directions and you have to mark off the ones that are pointing a certain direction.
These are time limited.

And last but not least a nice 350 questionnaire with "Yes", "No", "Not sure" as your possible answers.
Questions along the lines of:
"I usually help those in need"
"If someone hurts me, I want to hurt them back"
"I think people talk about me behind my back"
And shit like that. And a bunch of the questions are the same, just asked a bit differently.


Oh god, please don't put me through that Russian mess ever again. What a joke.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:30 pm

Airlines should be given access to all medical history including mental health. Privacy laws have gone too far. When you are responsible for the welfare of the public then your privacy should not be a priority.
 
nws2002
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:24 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Airlines should be given access to all medical history including mental health. Privacy laws have gone too far. When you are responsible for the welfare of the public then your privacy should not be a priority.


That is not necessary in the US at least. We have designated medical examiners that issue a medical certificate to pilots for this reason. Giving the companies direct access to a medical history, that they may not have a full understanding of, is worthless.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:10 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Airlines should be given access to all medical history including mental health. Privacy laws have gone too far. When you are responsible for the welfare of the public then your privacy should not be a priority.



Thats more than just overkill. becarefull what you wish for.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:26 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Airlines should be given access to all medical history including mental health. Privacy laws have gone too far. When you are responsible for the welfare of the public then your privacy should not be a priority.


As it is now, I agree to a medical examiner getting access to my medical history. He/she is required to keep it confidential. But a private company? No thanks. Too much potential for abuse.

If the medical examiner deems me fit to fly, that should be the end of it.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
tu204
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:07 am

VSMUT wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I hold a Canadian Class 1 and Russian Class 1 Aviation medical.

On the Canadian medical there is no test, on the Russian, the first time you apply and I believe every 3 or 5 years thereafter + if you had some head trauma since last medical you have a fun 1,5hour computer based test where a shrink is monitoring you.
First part is logic (compass test), second is reaction (ball goes from left to right or right to left across the screen with different velocities and you gotta hit the space-bar when it is in the middle), third...I dunno attention? A full screen full of "c" but the "open" side turned different directions and you have to mark off the ones that are pointing a certain direction.
These are time limited.

And last but not least a nice 350 questionnaire with "Yes", "No", "Not sure" as your possible answers.
Questions along the lines of:
"I usually help those in need"
"If someone hurts me, I want to hurt them back"
"I think people talk about me behind my back"
And shit like that. And a bunch of the questions are the same, just asked a bit differently.


Oh god, please don't put me through that Russian mess ever again. What a joke.


You took that shit too?
I did it back in September, had to concentrate not to fall asleep during that 350 question thing. Also didn't help that I was kind of hungover! :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
VSMUT
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:34 am

tu204 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I hold a Canadian Class 1 and Russian Class 1 Aviation medical.

On the Canadian medical there is no test, on the Russian, the first time you apply and I believe every 3 or 5 years thereafter + if you had some head trauma since last medical you have a fun 1,5hour computer based test where a shrink is monitoring you.
First part is logic (compass test), second is reaction (ball goes from left to right or right to left across the screen with different velocities and you gotta hit the space-bar when it is in the middle), third...I dunno attention? A full screen full of "c" but the "open" side turned different directions and you have to mark off the ones that are pointing a certain direction.
These are time limited.

And last but not least a nice 350 questionnaire with "Yes", "No", "Not sure" as your possible answers.
Questions along the lines of:
"I usually help those in need"
"If someone hurts me, I want to hurt them back"
"I think people talk about me behind my back"
And shit like that. And a bunch of the questions are the same, just asked a bit differently.


Oh god, please don't put me through that Russian mess ever again. What a joke.


You took that shit too?
I did it back in September, had to concentrate not to fall asleep during that 350 question thing. Also didn't help that I was kind of hungover! :lol:


Worst part was the talk with the accusatory shrink afterwards. She kept putting words in my mouth and giving me loaded questions.
 
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zeke
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:59 pm

ltbewr wrote:
In some jobs, like for a law enforcement officer, an applicant must go through some form of psychological and mental health review and testing as part of the application process. For Law enforcement, it is to keep out those that are not of the proper psychological makeup that would put themselves and the public at risk. I wonder if there is such a requirement to get a commercial airline pilot's license. I realize that various laws limit such reviews in most forms of employment, but with the risk of killing 100's, it may be necessary.


The ICAO medical standards include fit and proper person provisions, as well as various mental and neurological standards. The examiners who issue aviation medicals assess this, also the medical application forms include provisions for family mental health and personal mental health issues.

The medical standards and the recurrent medical testing far exceeds what law enforcement do. Additionally law enforcement often get work related mental health issues dealing with various victims which is environmentally induced. Not something civil pilots would encounter.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Airlines should be given access to all medical history including mental health. Privacy laws have gone too far. When you are responsible for the welfare of the public then your privacy should not be a priority.


Airlines are not “responsible for the welfare of the public”, that responsibility rests with the regulator who issues medical certificates. Regulator’s already have access to medical records as well as wealth of other data.

I’m curious to know who in an airline you think would access, read, and decide on an employees medical fitness, and what standard the would be assessed against. Suggestions like yours would question mental fitness as not being able to see the short and long term implications of their decisions/actions.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:54 pm

Back in the 60's Delta was famous for the "rocking chair" interview. The company shrink asked you to be seated while asked you a few questions. Everyone wanted to know whether rocking in the chair was sure thumbs down or up? I don't think anyone came up with a definitive answer. I heard later that the shrink had taken his own life so go figure.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:04 am

zeke wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
In some jobs, like for a law enforcement officer, an applicant must go through some form of psychological and mental health review and testing as part of the application process. For Law enforcement, it is to keep out those that are not of the proper psychological makeup that would put themselves and the public at risk. I wonder if there is such a requirement to get a commercial airline pilot's license. I realize that various laws limit such reviews in most forms of employment, but with the risk of killing 100's, it may be necessary.


The ICAO medical standards include fit and proper person provisions, as well as various mental and neurological standards. The examiners who issue aviation medicals assess this, also the medical application forms include provisions for family mental health and personal mental health issues.

The medical standards and the recurrent medical testing far exceeds what law enforcement do. Additionally law enforcement often get work related mental health issues dealing with various victims which is environmentally induced. Not something civil pilots would encounter.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Airlines should be given access to all medical history including mental health. Privacy laws have gone too far. When you are responsible for the welfare of the public then your privacy should not be a priority.


Airlines are not “responsible for the welfare of the public”, that responsibility rests with the regulator who issues medical certificates. Regulator’s already have access to medical records as well as wealth of other data.

I’m curious to know who in an airline you think would access, read, and decide on an employees medical fitness, and what standard the would be assessed against. Suggestions like yours would question mental fitness as not being able to see the short and long term implications of their decisions/actions.


That airplane belongs to them and they assume liability for the passengers. Having an unfit pilot or flight attendant is a huge liability to the airline.

Here's one example. I feel the airline should be made aware if you have a history of substance abuse. I wouldn't consider that objectionable in a decision to hire but I would definitely keep an eye on that employee and require them to be participating in counseling as well as increased random sobriety tests.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:54 am

BravoOne wrote:
Structured interviews, written tests, MMPPI comes to mind along with at least one well known airline that used Physcologist for awhile.


Many Delta employees have been interviewed by Dr. Janus.

http://delta.pastperfectonline.com/webobject/4DDDFA37-9FCE-41AD-A81A-331021810249
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:26 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
zeke wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
In some jobs, like for a law enforcement officer, an applicant must go through some form of psychological and mental health review and testing as part of the application process. For Law enforcement, it is to keep out those that are not of the proper psychological makeup that would put themselves and the public at risk. I wonder if there is such a requirement to get a commercial airline pilot's license. I realize that various laws limit such reviews in most forms of employment, but with the risk of killing 100's, it may be necessary.


The ICAO medical standards include fit and proper person provisions, as well as various mental and neurological standards. The examiners who issue aviation medicals assess this, also the medical application forms include provisions for family mental health and personal mental health issues.

The medical standards and the recurrent medical testing far exceeds what law enforcement do. Additionally law enforcement often get work related mental health issues dealing with various victims which is environmentally induced. Not something civil pilots would encounter.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Airlines should be given access to all medical history including mental health. Privacy laws have gone too far. When you are responsible for the welfare of the public then your privacy should not be a priority.


Airlines are not “responsible for the welfare of the public”, that responsibility rests with the regulator who issues medical certificates. Regulator’s already have access to medical records as well as wealth of other data.

I’m curious to know who in an airline you think would access, read, and decide on an employees medical fitness, and what standard the would be assessed against. Suggestions like yours would question mental fitness as not being able to see the short and long term implications of their decisions/actions.


That airplane belongs to them and they assume liability for the passengers. Having an unfit pilot or flight attendant is a huge liability to the airline.

Here's one example. I feel the airline should be made aware if you have a history of substance abuse. I wouldn't consider that objectionable in a decision to hire but I would definitely keep an eye on that employee and require them to be participating in counseling as well as increased random sobriety tests.


The regulators in the US have substance abuse pretty well covered.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:47 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
zeke wrote:

The ICAO medical standards include fit and proper person provisions, as well as various mental and neurological standards. The examiners who issue aviation medicals assess this, also the medical application forms include provisions for family mental health and personal mental health issues.

The medical standards and the recurrent medical testing far exceeds what law enforcement do. Additionally law enforcement often get work related mental health issues dealing with various victims which is environmentally induced. Not something civil pilots would encounter.



Airlines are not “responsible for the welfare of the public”, that responsibility rests with the regulator who issues medical certificates. Regulator’s already have access to medical records as well as wealth of other data.

I’m curious to know who in an airline you think would access, read, and decide on an employees medical fitness, and what standard the would be assessed against. Suggestions like yours would question mental fitness as not being able to see the short and long term implications of their decisions/actions.


That airplane belongs to them and they assume liability for the passengers. Having an unfit pilot or flight attendant is a huge liability to the airline.

Here's one example. I feel the airline should be made aware if you have a history of substance abuse. I wouldn't consider that objectionable in a decision to hire but I would definitely keep an eye on that employee and require them to be participating in counseling as well as increased random sobriety tests.


The regulators in the US have substance abuse pretty well covered.


Enforcement seems to be the issue. It seems drunk pilots only get in real trouble if caught abroad. The drunk captain of the NWA 727 is especially confusing. The FO and FE who weren't intoxicated were fired but the captain was allowed to return to his job. Those were the days where an FO and FE didn't dare challenge the captain so what exactly were they supposed to do?
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:49 am

I realize that psychological testing and screening of applicants for and persons in certain stressful and demanding jobs is limited by privacy and anti-discriminating laws, difficult and sometimes inaccurate of future behaviors, but to me it is necessary for all pilots. I bring this discussion up as we need to prevent the risks of persons with serious mental and psychological issues. There were serious red flags as to the psychological health of Germanwings pilot who intentionally crashed his plane; Egypt Air 990, Malaysian 370 and others including non-commercial planes where the PIC did apparent act of suicide killing 100's. Cockpit Resource Management was developed to deal with those pilots with certain personalities put the plane and passengers at risk. Alcohol and drug addictions are related to psychological factors that need to be dealt with in the best interests of all parties.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:04 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

That airplane belongs to them and they assume liability for the passengers. Having an unfit pilot or flight attendant is a huge liability to the airline.

Here's one example. I feel the airline should be made aware if you have a history of substance abuse. I wouldn't consider that objectionable in a decision to hire but I would definitely keep an eye on that employee and require them to be participating in counseling as well as increased random sobriety tests.


The regulators in the US have substance abuse pretty well covered.


Enforcement seems to be the issue. It seems drunk pilots only get in real trouble if caught abroad. The drunk captain of the NWA 727 is especially confusing. The FO and FE who weren't intoxicated were fired but the captain was allowed to return to his job. Those were the days where an FO and FE didn't dare challenge the captain so what exactly were they supposed to do?


You have been watching to many movies. Pilots have challenging Capts for years without repercussions.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:16 am

BravoOne wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The regulators in the US have substance abuse pretty well covered.


Enforcement seems to be the issue. It seems drunk pilots only get in real trouble if caught abroad. The drunk captain of the NWA 727 is especially confusing. The FO and FE who weren't intoxicated were fired but the captain was allowed to return to his job. Those were the days where an FO and FE didn't dare challenge the captain so what exactly were they supposed to do?


You have been watching to many movies. Pilots have challenging Capts for years without repercussions.


It wasn't until the mid 80's when CRM was adopted by most airlines. Some like Korean Air resisted though. Until then you had a lot of Captain Van Zantens in the flight deck. Robert Gant's book Sky Gods talks about Pan Am's adoption of CRM. He said some captains just couldn't adapt and were dismissed.
 
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zeke
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:01 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
That airplane belongs to them and they assume liability for the passengers.


Airlines have limited liability, and the insurance requirements per passenger are limited under international conventions.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Having an unfit pilot or flight attendant is a huge liability to the airline.


Airlines don’t let crew work if they are temporarily unfit. If a crew member does not meet the medical standards, the regulator removes the medical certificate.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Here's one example. I feel the airline should be made aware if you have a history of substance abuse. I wouldn't consider that objectionable in a decision to hire but I would definitely keep an eye on that employee and require them to be participating in counseling as well as increased random sobriety tests.


You are only around 50 years late, substance abuse is something the regulators have been overseeing for decades.

Addiction is a disease, and if a person receives treatment and returns to work they will get regular blood tests for the remainder of the time they are in a safety sensitive position.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:04 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

That airplane belongs to them and they assume liability for the passengers. Having an unfit pilot or flight attendant is a huge liability to the airline.

Here's one example. I feel the airline should be made aware if you have a history of substance abuse. I wouldn't consider that objectionable in a decision to hire but I would definitely keep an eye on that employee and require them to be participating in counseling as well as increased random sobriety tests.


The regulators in the US have substance abuse pretty well covered.


Enforcement seems to be the issue. It seems drunk pilots only get in real trouble if caught abroad. The drunk captain of the NWA 727 is especially confusing. The FO and FE who weren't intoxicated were fired but the captain was allowed to return to his job. Those were the days where an FO and FE didn't dare challenge the captain so what exactly were they supposed to do?


If you read the story, all three were over the limit, not just the captain. All convicted, too. All lot of new pilots seem to think the old days were populated with tyrannical captains that were also incompetent. Nothing was further from the truth—I flew a number of trips with a 2-digit seniority captain who was very explicit—we all die in a crash—speak up. Leo meant it right to his last trip, as did many others.

You’ve posted many absolutist positions on a number of topics which would indicate either a very “black or white” view of the world or lacking in experience in aviation resulting in overly confident answers. A whole lot of flying is “it depends”.

GF
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:25 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The regulators in the US have substance abuse pretty well covered.


Enforcement seems to be the issue. It seems drunk pilots only get in real trouble if caught abroad. The drunk captain of the NWA 727 is especially confusing. The FO and FE who weren't intoxicated were fired but the captain was allowed to return to his job. Those were the days where an FO and FE didn't dare challenge the captain so what exactly were they supposed to do?


If you read the story, all three were over the limit, not just the captain. All convicted, too. All lot of new pilots seem to think the old days were populated with tyrannical captains that were also incompetent. Nothing was further from the truth—I flew a number of trips with a 2-digit seniority captain who was very explicit—we all die in a crash—speak up. Leo meant it right to his last trip, as did many others.

You’ve posted many absolutist positions on a number of topics which would indicate either a very “black or white” view of the world or lacking in experience in aviation resulting in overly confident answers. A whole lot of flying is “it depends”.

GF



I've been flying since 2006. But no I'm not an airline pilot. I do very much see most rules as black and white though. And I would much rather be overly cautious. I have flown by myself plenty but I would always rather have another pilot with me and the biggest equipment I fly is a SR22. An extra pair of eyes and someone to ask what the hell are you doing is a comfort to me. Some of my friends are fine taking up a plane with some inop equipment as long as they are legal. I don't depart unless everything is functioning regardless of whether it's required for the flight. I had a great CFI and she insisted on highesr standards. She and I are both still alive and haven't crunched any airplanes. Unfortunately I can't say that for every pilot I've personally known over the years.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:14 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Enforcement seems to be the issue. It seems drunk pilots only get in real trouble if caught abroad. The drunk captain of the NWA 727 is especially confusing. The FO and FE who weren't intoxicated were fired but the captain was allowed to return to his job. Those were the days where an FO and FE didn't dare challenge the captain so what exactly were they supposed to do?


If you read the story, all three were over the limit, not just the captain. All convicted, too. All lot of new pilots seem to think the old days were populated with tyrannical captains that were also incompetent. Nothing was further from the truth—I flew a number of trips with a 2-digit seniority captain who was very explicit—we all die in a crash—speak up. Leo meant it right to his last trip, as did many others.

You’ve posted many absolutist positions on a number of topics which would indicate either a very “black or white” view of the world or lacking in experience in aviation resulting in overly confident answers. A whole lot of flying is “it depends”.

GF



I've been flying since 2006. But no I'm not an airline pilot. I do very much see most rules as black and white though. And I would much rather be overly cautious. I have flown by myself plenty but I would always rather have another pilot with me and the biggest equipment I fly is a SR22. An extra pair of eyes and someone to ask what the hell are you doing is a comfort to me. Some of my friends are fine taking up a plane with some inop equipment as long as they are legal. I don't depart unless everything is functioning regardless of whether it's required for the flight. I had a great CFI and she insisted on highesr standards. She and I are both still alive and haven't crunched any airplanes. Unfortunately I can't say that for every pilot I've personally known over the years.


Overly cautions, AKA "conservative", is a good trait in a pilot. No crew should dispatch without feeling that, to the best of their knowledge, the operation is safe.

However, and drifting a bit off-topic here, your example of not departing unless everything is functioning doesn't really work in airline ops. Commercial airliners fly with inop systems all the time, covered by the MEL.

The comparison with GA isn't apples to apples, of course. Redundancy in an airliner is way beyond anything in a GA plane, so the situation is somewhat different. We have 8-12 brakes, and two backups to the normal braking system. In a GA plane, you generally have two brakes and no system redundancy.

As GalaxyFlyer says, it often just depends. Can we go with an inop brake? Legally yes. Once we've established legality with the MEL and a performance assessment, we should be good to go. But wait, safety has a higher priority than legality. An inop brake might be fine if you're going to place x on day y, but not fine going to place r on day y, or place x on day z. Weather, runway condition, available ground facilities, and even fatigue levels must be accounted for in decision making.

Risk assessment is a dynamic process with many variable inputs. It is not black and white. And this includes human factors.

Just as a personal observation, I witnessed a number of pilots in GA that I'd rather not fly with. I haven't met a single airline pilot that I wouln'd let my kids fly with. One big difference is the depth and level of structure in the risk assessment process. Things like the MEL contribute to this, as do the brilliant performance tools. Much more precision, and thus much better basis for decisions if you feel you're on the margins. Generally, though, risk assessment is much more of an ingraned element in the operation.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Psychological testing and review of commercial pilot license applicants

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:36 am

Starlionblue wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

If you read the story, all three were over the limit, not just the captain. All convicted, too. All lot of new pilots seem to think the old days were populated with tyrannical captains that were also incompetent. Nothing was further from the truth—I flew a number of trips with a 2-digit seniority captain who was very explicit—we all die in a crash—speak up. Leo meant it right to his last trip, as did many others.

You’ve posted many absolutist positions on a number of topics which would indicate either a very “black or white” view of the world or lacking in experience in aviation resulting in overly confident answers. A whole lot of flying is “it depends”.

GF



I've been flying since 2006. But no I'm not an airline pilot. I do very much see most rules as black and white though. And I would much rather be overly cautious. I have flown by myself plenty but I would always rather have another pilot with me and the biggest equipment I fly is a SR22. An extra pair of eyes and someone to ask what the hell are you doing is a comfort to me. Some of my friends are fine taking up a plane with some inop equipment as long as they are legal. I don't depart unless everything is functioning regardless of whether it's required for the flight. I had a great CFI and she insisted on highesr standards. She and I are both still alive and haven't crunched any airplanes. Unfortunately I can't say that for every pilot I've personally known over the years.


Overly cautions, AKA "conservative", is a good trait in a pilot. No crew should dispatch without feeling that, to the best of their knowledge, the operation is safe.

However, and drifting a bit off-topic here, your example of not departing unless everything is functioning doesn't really work in airline ops. Commercial airliners fly with inop systems all the time, covered by the MEL.

The comparison with GA isn't apples to apples, of course. Redundancy in an airliner is way beyond anything in a GA plane, so the situation is somewhat different. We have 8-12 brakes, and two backups to the normal braking system. In a GA plane, you generally have two brakes and no system redundancy.

As GalaxyFlyer says, it often just depends. Can we go with an inop brake? Legally yes. Once we've established legality with the MEL and a performance assessment, we should be good to go. But wait, safety has a higher priority than legality. An inop brake might be fine if you're going to place x on day y, but not fine going to place r on day y, or place x on day z. Weather, runway condition, available ground facilities, and even fatigue levels must be accounted for in decision making.

Risk assessment is a dynamic process with many variable inputs. It is not black and white. And this includes human factors.

Just as a personal observation, I witnessed a number of pilots in GA that I'd rather not fly with. I haven't met a single airline pilot that I wouln'd let my kids fly with. One big difference is the depth and level of structure in the risk assessment process. Things like the MEL contribute to this, as do the brilliant performance tools. Much more precision, and thus much better basis for decisions if you feel you're on the margins. Generally, though, risk assessment is much more of an ingraned element in the operation.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply. And agreed that the tools and training the airlines provide are invaluable. But I'm very pleased with the advancements in resources and tech that we have on the GA side now. Much better than when I started flying 14 years ago.

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