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Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:36 pm
by AirbusCanada
Visibility was pretty poor on Jan 10th, 2020 at Billy Bishop after sunset and almost no flight was able to land at Billy bishop after 8 pm. Given the short runway and tall structures around Billy bishop, this happens quite often around this time of the year. The operation at Pearson(YYZ) seemed to be normal at that time.

Here are a few examples of diversions from Jan 10th,
PD140 from EWR: landed in Hamilton after hovering over lake Ontario for about an hour. Passengers reached bill bishop by buy charted by Porter around 11:30 pm.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/pd140#237ba8ee

PD728 from IAD: Went back to IAD after making a two attempts to land at Billy Bishop. They had the option to land at Hamilton(YHM) but choose to go back to IAD. Passengers were issued refunds or rebooked on other flights.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/pd728#237bbadb


My question is, Despite Greater Toronto Area having multiple option for diversions [Pearson (YYZ), Markham(YKZ), Ohsawa (YOO)], why does porter always diverts to Hamilton? On my last diversion to Hamilton, I spoke to the bus driver, they he mentioned to me that he was notified in the morning, and waiting at the airport from 6pm, just in case there are any porter diversions to Hamilton.

Does it not cost porter a fortune to arrange alternative accommodation for all passengers/crews in the last minute, instead of landing at one of the other airport in Greater Toronto area.

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:40 pm
by Q
YYZ and YTZ are the same locations due bad weather. Hamilton is a bit far not as close bad weather area. Chicago bad weather some planes divert to Milwaukee or South Bend or Rockford. Chicago planes don't divert to Midway if plane heading to OHare. It is very rare to close to each others airports divert.

Q

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:06 pm
by AirbusCanada
Q wrote:
YYZ and YTZ are the same locations due bad weather. Hamilton is a bit far not as close bad weather area. Chicago bad weather some planes divert to Milwaukee or South Bend or Rockford. Chicago planes don't divert to Midway if plane heading to OHare. It is very rare to close to each others airports divert.

Q

Not factually correct. Air Canada flight AC7917 from Raleigh/Durham, NC landed at Pearson around 8:56 pm on January 10th. (https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac7917#237bb690) while Porter flight PD140 was circling over lake Ontario, waiting for the weather to get better at Billy Bishop a the same time.

AS I mentioned before, YYZ does not have the same limitation because of much longer runways and better lighting system, and other landing aids. Not sure if YTZ has CAT III equipment installed.

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:09 pm
by YYZYYT
Not in airlines ops, but I would guess that time and cost favour Hamilton also.

It will be far easier and faster to find an open gate, off-load passengers and baggage. I'm guessing the total time will offset the extra time on the bus to YTZ (1:10? from YHM, rather than 30 min from YYZ, depending no traffic of course).

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:34 pm
by ghYHZ
I've been diverted twice from YTZ and in both instances we went to Pearson. Just the flavour of the day!

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:11 pm
by aamd11
Weather isn't always the only factor.

Gate availability at YYZ can be an issue for PD. They tend to prioritize international diversions to YYZ if it has any gate space. But if there's no gates available to PD, they won't go. YYZ is also extremely expensive to divert to, and the costs rack up frighteningly quickly, especially in the winter with de-icing costs to be taken into account.

Getting the operation back on it's feet the next day is also a huge factor later in the day. If you're shutting the YTZ operation down, you want planes to be accessible and mobile as soon as possible the next morning. Getting out of YYZ first thing if you have to de-ice isn't easy at all, and PD got burnt countless times by that kind of thing - the recovery was often even worse than the original weather event.

YHM is generally much easier to get planes out of. Not without issue, of course, but PD can usually start a recovery sooner from YHM than YYZ and salvage more of the operation that way. The cost of keeping a plane overnight at YHM is drastically less, which is a key factor for them.

It's also not uncommon for YOW to take diversions when the weather takes a turn. YQG, YSB and to a lesser extent YUL can also see diversions. A lot of flights will be planned as return to origin in a fog event, to avoid putting passengers in a third city that wasn't on their itinerary.

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:45 pm
by AC320tech
AirbusCanada wrote:
Not factually correct.

AS I mentioned


So you ask a question which you dont know the answer to, and then argue the answer?

PD may divert to YHM because its cheaper, easier to restart, etc. YYZ is ten feet away from YTZ so its probably not a good idea to attempt to land there if you cant land at YTZ. Maybe there is also a crew or aircraft limitation?

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:50 pm
by Gr8Circle
AirbusCanada wrote:
My question is, Despite Greater Toronto Area having multiple option for diversions [Pearson (YYZ), Markham(YKZ), Ohsawa (YOO)], why does porter always diverts to Hamilton? On my last diversion to Hamilton, I spoke to the bus driver, they he mentioned to me that he was notified in the morning, and waiting at the airport from 6pm, just in case there are any porter diversions to Hamilton.


All the reasons mentioned above, plus I don't think Markham and Oshawa have immigration facilities for a flight coming from the US, whereas Hamilton does.....

and as mentioned above, YTZ and YYZ are too close.....if weather conditions bad at YTZ, good chances of equally bad weather at YYZ...

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:50 pm
by Gr8Circle
AirbusCanada wrote:
My question is, Despite Greater Toronto Area having multiple option for diversions [Pearson (YYZ), Markham(YKZ), Ohsawa (YOO)], why does porter always diverts to Hamilton? On my last diversion to Hamilton, I spoke to the bus driver, they he mentioned to me that he was notified in the morning, and waiting at the airport from 6pm, just in case there are any porter diversions to Hamilton.


All the reasons mentioned above, plus I don't think Markham and Oshawa have immigration facilities for a flight coming from the US, whereas Hamilton does.....

and as mentioned above, YTZ and YYZ are too close.....if weather conditions bad at YTZ, good chances of equally bad weather at YYZ...

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:43 pm
by longhauler
Gr8Circle wrote:
and as mentioned above, YTZ and YYZ are too close.....if weather conditions bad at YTZ, good chances of equally bad weather at YYZ...


While localized weather often occurs at YTZ, especially with a south wind, the biggest difference is that the approach facilities at YYZ will allow much poorer visibility legally. 1 mile / RVR5000 at YTZ, vs. RVR 600 at YYZ. (or YHM).

Not to mention under contaminated conditions, YTZ’s longest runway is 3988’. Dicey when bare and dry .... start adding snow or slush and longer runways become a much better option.

While the drive from YHM to Toronto is about 30 minutes longer than YYZ to (downtown) Toronto, there’s a very good chance passenger handling would easily make up the difference. It’s not uncommon to go from airside to landside in 5 minutes at YHM. From the infield terminal at YYZ (where i usually see PD aircraft parked) to landside for arranged transport is easily 45 minutes.

Re: Why does porter airlines diverts to Hamilton(YHM) instead of Pearson(YYZ) during bad weather at Billy Bishop(YTZ).

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:54 am
by Cubsrule
longhauler wrote:
Gr8Circle wrote:
and as mentioned above, YTZ and YYZ are too close.....if weather conditions bad at YTZ, good chances of equally bad weather at YYZ...


While localized weather often occurs at YTZ, especially with a south wind, the biggest difference is that the approach facilities at YYZ will allow much poorer visibility legally. 1 mile / RVR5000 at YTZ, vs. RVR 600 at YYZ. (or YHM).

Not to mention under contaminated conditions, YTZ’s longest runway is 3988’. Dicey when bare and dry .... start adding snow or slush and longer runways become a much better option.

While the drive from YHM to Toronto is about 30 minutes longer than YYZ to (downtown) Toronto, there’s a very good chance passenger handling would easily make up the difference. It’s not uncommon to go from airside to landside in 5 minutes at YHM. From the infield terminal at YYZ (where i usually see PD aircraft parked) to landside for arranged transport is easily 45 minutes.


All good points. It’s also important to remember that Terminal 3 immigration isn’t much fun on the best of days. Heck, I’ve had waits of 45 minutes to an hour from a contact gate to landslide and that’s without the bus ride from the infield terminal.