upperdeckfan
Topic Author
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Deicing is aircraft type depending

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:44 pm

This morning I experienced a 5-hr delay out of VLC because of lack of deicing equipment. Purpose of this thread is not to discuss why an airport which once in a while can get below freezing isn't equiped for deicing but if you want to discuss it feel free to do so.

What caught my attention is that we were flying the KL E190 on the 0600 departure and the captain said we had to wait for the ice on the wings to melt by itself, which took us until 1100 to be cleared.On the other hand, all the A320's and B738's (LH, UX, VY, FR, etc) which have stayed overnight on the tarmac left on time without having to wait for ice to melt.

Up to now I've always thought that deicing was required for all departing aircraft regardless of size/type but this morning it didn't seem to be the case. I am very curious to learn why a small a/c like the E190 had to wait and larger ones didn't have.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2072
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:49 pm

Each airline has a unique deicing program which specifies requirements when/when to not deice. The program is evaluated by the certificate authority and approved on a case by case basis. Each is different.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4039
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:20 pm

The thicker wing of the larger narrowbody aircraft might be able to maintain a warmer temperature overnight as there is more mass there. Also, those airplanes require more fuel and it's possible when they were fueled up the net increase in temperature (by bringing warmer fuel into the wing) was enough to melt the frost on the wing. The EMB is smaller so combined with less mass to retain heat, it also likely required less fuel so had a lower benefit from warm fuel entering the wing tank.

Believe it or not, the shape of a wing can also result in differences. The air moving over the wing (from wind while parked) may not form condensation as easily on one airplane as it does another.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6408
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:42 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Each airline has a unique deicing program which specifies requirements when/when to not deice. The program is evaluated by the certificate authority and approved on a case by case basis. Each is different.


Is there typically a manufacturer spec for de-icing?
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2581
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:44 pm

At a guess. When your E190 landed the night before it had a fairly large amount of fuel onboard, which had been cold-soaked en route. During the night, this enabled ice to form on the wings. The other aircraft may have had less fuel onboard, and were thus less susceptible to ice build-up.

The rules are more or less the same for all well-regulated airlines, as everyone's using the same reference material. Your were unlucky to be onboard an aircraft where ice had formed on the wings, the other aircraft you so taking off must have been clear of ice.
Signature. You just read one.
 
rampbro
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:00 am

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:00 pm

KL probably just made a cost/benefit decision: pay the (contract ramp handler/airport - IDK how it is at VLC) fee to de-ice, or wait for nature to take its course and deal with the IROPS fallout. I could see the cost to de-ice at an outstation like VLC being high - they probably don't stock much Type 2 and almost certainly no Type 4.
 
upperdeckfan
Topic Author
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:35 am

rampbro wrote:
KL probably just made a cost/benefit decision: pay the (contract ramp handler/airport - IDK how it is at VLC) fee to de-ice, or wait for nature to take its course and deal with the IROPS fallout. I could see the cost to de-ice at an outstation like VLC being high - they probably don't stock much Type 2 and almost certainly no Type 4.



As said, there is no deicing equipment in VLC of any kind/type.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:14 pm

It’s only required when it’s required. Chances are the other planes just didn’t have ice on their wings.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 686
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:32 pm

Was this before or after sun-rise? What side of the concourse were they, the sunny or shady side, it will make a slight difference.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
upperdeckfan
Topic Author
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:40 pm

exFWAOONW wrote:
Was this before or after sun-rise? What side of the concourse were they, the sunny or shady side, it will make a slight difference.



0600 departure and airport layout hace most of the planes oriented north-south so sun on one wing and shadow in the other

BTW, per FR24 today's flight was delayed more than 4 tours again
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
Flow2706
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:41 am

In general there is a clear wing policy with very few certified exceptions that have been tested and verified by the manufacturer and the authorities. For the A320 series, a thin layer of frost below the wing is allowable (it usually forms after descending from a long cruise flight - I have even seen it on the Canary Islands with 25-30C outside temperature on the ground...). I know that other types have some other exceptions, I seem to remember that the 737 has an area on the upper part of the wing where some ice accumulation is acceptable. Maybe the 737s had some ice in 'acceptable' areas, but for the EMB it was not acceptable.
As other people have said, the accumulation of ice depends on many factors, f.e. the fuel load on the last landing. On some aircraft types fuel pumps are generating some heat which helps the ice to melt. On the A320 it can be helpful to turn the pumps back on just after arriving to increase the melting (it's not an official procedure, but as it's not contrary to any official procedure either it is a useful trick). Maybe the fuel pumps on the EMB are not generating so much heat or are located in an other position relative to the fuel tank/wings surface.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3625
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:27 pm

I used to work at Stockholm Arlanda for British Airways and have supervised the deicing of hundreds of aircraft.
The fuel price at ARN was higher than LHR for BA, so the flight plan suggested to the crew that it was a good idea to tanker fuel into ARN. Sometimes the flight dispatcher would put the extra fuel on himself. We noticed that during the winter, aircraft arriving with extra fuel formed frost on the upper wing so that deicing was required. Aircraft arriving with minimum fuel did not. On the aircraft with minimum fuel, the fuel was not touching the upper surface of the wing, except in the collector tank area. On the A320, the outboard fuel had transferred inboard.
We talked to flight dispatch and agreed that extra fuel would not be planned if the OAT was below 10degC. I reckon that this worked very well, and really saved us money. The money saving by tankering fuel was around 20 USD, and the cost of deicing around 500 USD.
On the A320/B734 the figure for remaing fuel was around 3500Kg to stop the frost forming on the upper surface. (Our diversion was far away)
We also used less fuel and less deicing fluid. In today's Greta world that would be obvious, but 20 years ago it was a fight. Every couple of years a new entrant in operations would be tasked to save money, and start tankering fuel again!
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3437
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Deicing is aircraft type depending

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:16 pm

B777LRF wrote:
At a guess. When your E190 landed the night before it had a fairly large amount of fuel onboard, which had been cold-soaked en route. During the night, this enabled ice to form on the wings. The other aircraft may have had less fuel onboard, and were thus less susceptible to ice build-up.

The rules are more or less the same for all well-regulated airlines, as everyone's using the same reference material. Your were unlucky to be onboard an aircraft where ice had formed on the wings, the other aircraft you so taking off must have been clear of ice.


I was thinking the same. Could also be related to refueling in the evening vs morning, the contents of the fuel truck or underground pipe system being just warm enough to defrost the wing. Time of arrival could factor in as well, if the others arrived before the temperature dropped below zero.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 380Capt, bradyj23, sportzbar and 12 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos