afcjets
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American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:49 pm

Does American still have a crew base in RDU? Based on the current schedule there is almost enough time to add a CLT turn onto RDU-LHR without any tweaking and AA might be able to get a decent LDF on it. Still, it would be expensive to operate but there is potential to reduce crew related costs.
 
USAirALB
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:26 pm

I could be wrong, but I believe there still is a small crew base in RDU.
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CosmicCruiser
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:43 pm

Considering AA's predisposition for big delays in CLT I see a major can of worms opening up.
 
PI4EVR
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:58 pm

The turn is only about 3 hours in RDU so it likely would require a re-timing in and out of LHR w/slot issues to add a CLT rotation roundtrip. To clean and service a 777 on such a short turnaround with marginal load factor/revenue potential would not be practical, and is likely why it has never been scheduled. At best its a 45 minute flight at lower altitudes that would significantly increase operating costs.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:22 pm

PI4EVR wrote:
The turn is only about 3 hours in RDU so it likely would require a re-timing in and out of LHR w/slot issues to add a CLT rotation roundtrip. To clean and service a 777 on such a short turnaround with marginal load factor/revenue potential would not be practical, and is likely why it has never been scheduled. At best its a 45 minute flight at lower altitudes that would significantly increase operating costs.


If they don't have an RDU crew base (admittedly I have no idea if they do), I'd assume it's crewed on a W pattern. I.e. JFK-LHR-RDU-LHR-JFK. That would be far more reliable and operationally/financially efficient than deadheading a crew to and from the same flight everyday.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:34 pm

No crew base in RDU.
 
afcjets
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:42 pm

PI4EVR wrote:
The turn is only about 3 hours in RDU so it likely would require a re-timing in and out of LHR w/slot issues to add a CLT rotation roundtrip. To clean and service a 777 on such a short turnaround with marginal load factor/revenue potential would not be practical, and is likely why it has never been scheduled. At best its a 45 minute flight at lower altitudes that would significantly increase operating costs.

I haven't flown it in decades but it was always about 25 minutes actual flying time. There are 9 daily mainline flights where 4 are A321 (southbound) so I don't think the LDF or revenue would be marginal. Flightaware.com no longer shows the incoming flight without paying but American likely has several 777s that spend several hours on the ground in LHR after flying the night before so departing earlier shouldn't be much of an issue, even if it means tweaking another departure too.
 
afcjets
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:48 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:

If they don't have an RDU crew base (admittedly I have no idea if they do), I'd assume it's crewed on a W pattern. I.e. JFK-LHR-RDU-LHR-JFK. That would be far more reliable and operationally/financially efficient than deadheading a crew to and from the same flight everyday.


You don't need a 777 or A330 to deadhead a crew, you could do that today. I was thinking it was short enough for the crew to fly thru.
 
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casinterest
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:36 pm

afcjets wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

If they don't have an RDU crew base (admittedly I have no idea if they do), I'd assume it's crewed on a W pattern. I.e. JFK-LHR-RDU-LHR-JFK. That would be far more reliable and operationally/financially efficient than deadheading a crew to and from the same flight everyday.


You don't need a 777 or A330 to deadhead a crew, you could do that today. I was thinking it was short enough for the crew to fly thru.


They would still need two -three hours on the ground in RDU, at least, just to clean the plane

RDU has a flight attendant base for AA anyhow, so the Flight attendant's flying home would maybe have to deadhead back anyway. I don[t think flying a 777 an extra 25 minute hop for the pilots is efficient for the airline.
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RDUDDJI
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:05 pm

afcjets wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

If they don't have an RDU crew base (admittedly I have no idea if they do), I'd assume it's crewed on a W pattern. I.e. JFK-LHR-RDU-LHR-JFK. That would be far more reliable and operationally/financially efficient than deadheading a crew to and from the same flight everyday.


You don't need a 777 or A330 to deadhead a crew, you could do that today.


Read what I said. I never said that you need a 777 or A330 to ferry ~12 crew members (or how ever many on a 772)... There's no reason they coudn't deadhead on any type. As I DID say, it wouldn't be operationally or financially in AA's best interest to do that.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:37 am

I'm guessing RDU-LHR is a perfect route for the A321XLR when AA receives them. Then it would make since to do a CLT turn.
 
afcjets
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:02 pm

casinterest wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I was thinking it was short enough for the crew to fly thru.


They would still need two -three hours on the ground in RDU, at least, just to clean the plane

RDU has a flight attendant base for AA anyhow, so the Flight attendant's flying home would maybe have to deadhead back anyway. I don[t think flying a 777 an extra 25 minute hop for the pilots is efficient for the airline.


I bet they could do it in 90 minutes or less. United turns domestic 787s at EWR in less than 75 minutes and I have seen widebodies in the past have stops that short on international thru flights, but it's almost impossible to find one today that doesn't involve a change of equipment, so it's hard to say for sure.

The FAs could fly RDU-LHR-RDU one trip and CLT-RDU-CLT could be another crew which might fly beyond CLT, especially in the winter when CLT has Caribbean and more domestic widebody flying.
Last edited by afcjets on Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
alasizon
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:02 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm guessing RDU-LHR is a perfect route for the A321XLR when AA receives them. Then it would make since to do a CLT turn.


More likely it would downgrade to a 787 as opposed to a narrowbody if AA wanted to go that route.
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casinterest
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:22 pm

alasizon wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm guessing RDU-LHR is a perfect route for the A321XLR when AA receives them. Then it would make since to do a CLT turn.


More likely it would downgrade to a 787 as opposed to a narrowbody if AA wanted to go that route.



Why does everyone talk about downgrading the aircraft type Does anyone remember that AA chose to upgrade the flight from a 767 to a 777 two years ago to get 40 extra seats.

In that time, traffic at RDU has grown by 20%.

A321's may make sense at some point (AKA 3 flights a day),but not right now.
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casinterest
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:23 pm

afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I was thinking it was short enough for the crew to fly thru.


They would still need two -three hours on the ground in RDU, at least, just to clean the plane

RDU has a flight attendant base for AA anyhow, so the Flight attendant's flying home would maybe have to deadhead back anyway. I don[t think flying a 777 an extra 25 minute hop for the pilots is efficient for the airline.


I bet they could do it in 90 minutes or less. United turns domestic 787s at EWR in less than 75 minutes and I have seen widebodies in the past have stops that short on international thru flights, but it's almost impossible to find one today that doesn't involve a change of equipment, so it's hard to say for sure.

The FAs could fly RDU-LHR-RDU one trip and CLT-RDU-CLT could be another crew which might fly beyond CLT, especially in the winter when CLT has Caribbean and more domestic widebody flying.


Domestic flights are a far cry from international flights with meal service and items left over from 8-9 hours of customer use.
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afcjets
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:39 pm

casinterest wrote:
afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
They would still need two -three hours on the ground in RDU, at least, just to clean the plane
I bet they could do it in 90 minutes or less. United turns domestic 787s at EWR in less than 75 minutes and I have seen widebodies in the past have stops that short on international thru flights, but it's almost impossible to find one today that doesn't involve a change of equipment, so it's hard to say for sure.
Domestic flights are a far cry from international flights with meal service and items left over from 8-9 hours of customer use.


I found one. Cathay Pacific has a same plane thru flight HKG-YVR-JFK with a 777 with a 100 minute stop in YVR, which is a much longer flight, has three classes of service instead of two, and also has to be catered during the stop unlike AA would before CLT-RDU. Not to mention YVR is a major international airport and a hub (unlike RDU), and it involves two international flights instead of the tag being domestic. AA could easily turn a 777 at RDU in 90 minutes if the flight continued to CLT.
 
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:21 am

afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I bet they could do it in 90 minutes or less. United turns domestic 787s at EWR in less than 75 minutes and I have seen widebodies in the past have stops that short on international thru flights, but it's almost impossible to find one today that doesn't involve a change of equipment, so it's hard to say for sure.
Domestic flights are a far cry from international flights with meal service and items left over from 8-9 hours of customer use.


I found one. Cathay Pacific has a same plane thru flight HKG-YVR-JFK with a 777 with a 100 minute stop in YVR, which is a much longer flight, has three classes of service instead of two, and also has to be catered during the stop unlike AA would before CLT-RDU. Not to mention YVR is a major international airport and a hub (unlike RDU), and it involves two international flights instead of the tag being domestic. AA could easily turn a 777 at RDU in 90 minutes if the flight continued to CLT.


Ok, so let's assume a 100 minute turn in Raleigh, what is the benefit? You aren't going to be able to justify all the seats RDU<-->CLT. Much better to do a Turn of PHL/DFW/CLT/JFK/ORD <---->LHR<----->RDU

Crews can hop the A320/319 flights to the crew bases. I have seen quite a few articles that their are many widebody pilots in RDU area just because they like the location and are holdovers from the hub days.

What eats AA's profit is that they rely far too much on the hub and spoke model. It works great on a Sunny day, but when major storms hit the hubs, their whole system gets destroyed. Far better to start working more focus cities like Delta does.
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afcjets
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:30 am

casinterest wrote:

Ok, so let's assume a 100 minute turn in Raleigh, what is the benefit? You aren't going to be able to justify all the seats RDU<-->CLT. Much better to do a Turn of PHL/DFW/CLT/JFK/ORD <---->LHR<----->RDU

Crews can hop the A320/319 flights to the crew bases. I have seen quite a few articles that their are many widebody pilots in RDU area just because they like the location and are holdovers from the hub days.

What eats AA's profit is that they rely far too much on the hub and spoke model. It works great on a Sunny day, but when major storms hit the hubs, their whole system gets destroyed. Far better to start working more focus cities like Delta does.


The benefit to AA is they can close the crew base. It's only a 2.5 hr drive to CLT and there are nine mainline flights per day so it's not like anyone would have to relocate or commute for long. Or they can eliminate RDU layovers and per diem costs on XXX-LHR-RDU-LHR-XXX trips. A321 to A330 is not an unreasonable upgauge either and they would probably fill it up often.
 
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casinterest
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:31 pm

afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Ok, so let's assume a 100 minute turn in Raleigh, what is the benefit? You aren't going to be able to justify all the seats RDU<-->CLT. Much better to do a Turn of PHL/DFW/CLT/JFK/ORD <---->LHR<----->RDU

Crews can hop the A320/319 flights to the crew bases. I have seen quite a few articles that their are many widebody pilots in RDU area just because they like the location and are holdovers from the hub days.

What eats AA's profit is that they rely far too much on the hub and spoke model. It works great on a Sunny day, but when major storms hit the hubs, their whole system gets destroyed. Far better to start working more focus cities like Delta does.


The benefit to AA is they can close the crew base. It's only a 2.5 hr drive to CLT and there are nine mainline flights per day so it's not like anyone would have to relocate or commute for long. Or they can eliminate RDU layovers and per diem costs on XXX-LHR-RDU-LHR-XXX trips. A321 to A330 is not an unreasonable upgauge either and they would probably fill it up often.

I don't think they have the crew base there anymore for pilots. Just flight attendants. RDU has a big RON holding for Delta, American and other airlines, They handles over 3 million passengers in a year at RDU. There are logistics involved that shuttling one 777 onward to CLT is not going to solve. The solution you are driving at is , why not fly everyone to CLT that wants to go to LHR from RDU.
The issue is that if AA did that, then Delta would swoop in and run a flight to AMS or another European airport and crush the cost savings of AA doing away with the flight.
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afcjets
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:43 pm

casinterest wrote:
I don't think they have the crew base there anymore for pilots. Just flight attendants. RDU has a big RON holding for Delta, American and other airlines, They handles over 3 million passengers in a year at RDU. There are logistics involved that shuttling one 777 onward to CLT is not going to solve. The solution you are driving at is , why not fly everyone to CLT that wants to go to LHR from RDU.
The issue is that if AA did that, then Delta would swoop in and run a flight to AMS or another European airport and crush the cost savings of AA doing away with the flight.

American does not need a crew base at RDU (perhaps American Eagle though), especially if the RDU flight originated in CLT and the crew could fly thru in both directions. I imagine they could as AA has nonstops much longer than the the thru flight would be. The base exists solely because it is a holdover from the hub days and for the LHR flight. I am in no way suggesting they get rid of the flight, it is very profitable for them and has a high yield. In fact where you correctly point out above it doesn't need to be downgauged to the A321XLR as another poster suggested as it was already upgauged from a 763, it wasn't for total seats, it was for more J seats.
 
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:05 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm guessing RDU-LHR is a perfect route for the A321XLR when AA receives them. Then it would make since to do a CLT turn.


I'd bet there's alot of pharmaceutical cargo on that flight. Would be perfect for the 787-10. Can't believe UA is the only us airline to order them. Basically purpose built to be a
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:19 am

afcjets wrote:
casinterest wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I bet they could do it in 90 minutes or less. United turns domestic 787s at EWR in less than 75 minutes and I have seen widebodies in the past have stops that short on international thru flights, but it's almost impossible to find one today that doesn't involve a change of equipment, so it's hard to say for sure.
Domestic flights are a far cry from international flights with meal service and items left over from 8-9 hours of customer use.


I found one. Cathay Pacific has a same plane thru flight HKG-YVR-JFK with a 777 with a 100 minute stop in YVR, which is a much longer flight, has three classes of service instead of two, and also has to be catered during the stop unlike AA would before CLT-RDU. Not to mention YVR is a major international airport and a hub (unlike RDU), and it involves two international flights instead of the tag being domestic. AA could easily turn a 777 at RDU in 90 minutes if the flight continued to CLT.


100 minutes is plenty. You could do it in 75. The cleaners, caterers, loaders and fuelers have it down to a fine art. The bottleneck is deboarding and boarding.

Not sure if keeping transit pax on board makes things faster or slows them down. Either way, there would be a crew change on that service so you have to get everyone off.

BTW it is four classes of service on that service I believe.
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Re: American CLT-/RDU-LHR trips

Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:37 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No crew base in RDU.


There is a flight attendant base of about 100 in RDU. They work the LHR flight, and the base is occasionally allocated a domestic sequence. The RDU Domestic base opened in 1987 and closed in the 1990s. The RDU International base opened in 1988 to service the new RDU-ORY route. The route was shifted to LGW in the 1990s, and then finally to LHR in the 2000s.

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