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northstardc4m
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Go around vs aborted approach?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:46 pm

I was on a flight yesterday (WN1155) that made what I would call a go around (BWI 1 mile final to 33L at ~700') but they called it an aborted approach when I asked and they didn't say they were on a go around when they came back to Potomac App. Is there a specific use for both terms?

I know many if not all majors require reports to be filed after go arounds, was this a way of avoiding that because of the cause? ( which I'm still not clear on, live ATC is missing the 1500-1530 BWI tower archive for Jan24, just a static file).

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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:07 pm

No, most don’t require a report after a go-around, missed approach, aborted approach, unless there was a significant hazard outside the aircraft, say a near-miss. The point of “no fault “ go arounds is to not inhibit doing so with reports and investigations.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:08 pm

You can call it what you want. At one Fortune 500 co. I flew for the Chief pilot, who was a respected WWII Naval pilot, decided that missed approach sounds too negative so he had it in all our manuals as a PDM, Prudent Decision Maneuver. I always thought that was funny. At the major airline I flew for (albeit cargo) we were never required to write up a go-around, missed approach or whatever you prefer to call it. We did have to make a maint. write up for ANY rejected T/O regardless of the speed it was performed at. Turns out the tower would always notify the GADO of all rejected T/Os which brings us to another story I won't go into.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, most don’t require a report after a go-around, missed approach, aborted approach, unless there was a significant hazard outside the aircraft, say a near-miss. The point of “no fault “ go arounds is to not inhibit doing so with reports and investigations.
I've heard pilots request go around reasons from ATC for "reports" more than once? American, Delta Connection(Skywest), Air Canada and Sunwing at least.. At YYZ, BUF and ORD?

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CosmicCruiser
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:39 pm

I would say if the crew was asking the tower for the reason for the G/A then it wasn't a crew generated event. They were more than likely wanting a reason to code a delay. I would think a mandatory report for any G/A could be looked at as a reason to never go around therefore encouraging unsafe decisions.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:03 am

I wrote a somewhat lengthy reply about go arounds and missed approaches but then I looked at the screenshot of the flight path and I'm pretty sure I know why the pilot used neither of those terms, because neither really seems accurate.

What the pilot seems to have done is flown an actual approach, broken it off and then gone into a standard traffic pattern to another runway. That's not really either a go-around or a missed approach. A go-around is when you decide to not land for some reason and then come back around and try again. A missed approach is when you're following a published approach and then execute some missed approach procedure - either the published one or an alternate provided by ATC.

Why the pilot of this flight did this is really anyone's guess, but when I as a pilot think of either a go around or missed approach, I think of there being some reason I either couldn't land or at least didn't feel comfortable landing. Maybe this guy just wanted a runway exit closer to the gate or something, who knows. Or maybe the winds changed and he elected to change runways early, before he got to the point that he had to call for a go-around.

I don't know Southwest's policies but I can tell you at least that not *every* major airline requires reports for go-arounds. So it probably was not that. It's probably just the way he's used to using these terms, and that neither go-around nor missed approach really fit what he actually did.
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zeke
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:37 am

spacecadet wrote:

What the pilot seems to have done is flown an actual approach, broken it off and then gone into a standard traffic pattern to another runway. That's not really either a go-around or a missed approach. A go-around is when you decide to not land for some reason and then come back around and try again. A missed approach is when you're following a published approach and then execute some missed approach procedure - either the published one or an alternate provided by ATC.


Not even sure they started an approach for 33 at all, the lowest they got was around 8000 ft then joined downwind for 10.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:00 am

Nomenclature varies. I've never heard the words "abort" or "aborted" used at work. We use the terms "go around", "missed approach" and "rejected landing".

AFAIK "aborted landing" is more of a military term. Perhaps the pilots the OP spoke to had military backgrounds.

- Go around - A manoeuvre with which an approach to land is interrupted.
- Missed approach - A procedure, either published or instructed by ATC, typically following a go around.
- Rejected landing - A go-around initiated after touchdown. This requires a somewhat different procedure compared to a standard go around.

So when does a missed approach not follow a go around? I suppose opinions vary, but as I see it, if you are in the initial or intermediate approach and you just get an instruction to discontinue the approach, perhaps with vectors, that would be it. This might follow a weather deterioration with decision to divert. You haven't performed the actual go around manoeuvre so it is not a go around. On the other hand, if you are instructed to go around, or if you perform the go around manoeuvre, that is a go around followed by a missed approach.

Technical digression follows. In an Airbus, going missed without a go around would involve "forcing" the flight management system from the approach phase back into the climb or cruise phase by re-entering a cruise level above your current altitude. Since the go around phase was never active, you haven't performed a go around. To activate the go around phase, you must go to TOGA, even if only for a second. After the go around, you can either re-activate the approach phase for another approach or force the climb or cruise phase for a diversion.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:10 am

zeke wrote:
spacecadet wrote:

What the pilot seems to have done is flown an actual approach, broken it off and then gone into a standard traffic pattern to another runway. That's not really either a go-around or a missed approach. A go-around is when you decide to not land for some reason and then come back around and try again. A missed approach is when you're following a published approach and then execute some missed approach procedure - either the published one or an alternate provided by ATC.


Not even sure they started an approach for 33 at all, the lowest they got was around 8000 ft then joined downwind for 10.


That's the speed graph in yellow. Altitude is in blue. The OP highlighted the time of the go around (yellow vertical line) to give the data snapshot at the bottom. 154 knots and 700ft.
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zeke
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:32 am

Starlionblue wrote:
That's the speed graph in yellow. Altitude is in blue. The OP highlighted the time of the go around (yellow vertical line) to give the data snapshot at the bottom. 154 knots and 700ft.


You are correct I got them the wrong way around. But worth pointing out the altitude and speeds are not the altitude and speed seen in the cockpit.

The numbers are pressure altitude and gps ground speed.
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Flow2706
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:43 am

In Airbus speak there is a defined difference between a "discontinued approach" and a "go around". An approach can be "discontinued" only when still at or above the FCU selected altitude. In this case the approach mode is simply deselected and replaced by the appropriate modes. In this case the thrust levers are not placed into TOGA and the FMGC remains in approach phase. Reasons for discontinued approaches could be ATC instructions or technical problems before glide slope intercept (f.e. I had Flaps locked in zero once - as the G/S* mode was not active yet we simply disarmed the approach and entered a hold to troubleshoot).
Go Arounds are not mandatory reports, however some companies encourage their pilots to report them on a voluntary basis, not for punitive reasons, but for statistics etc. ATC sometimes asks for the reason for a go around if it is not obvious.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:41 pm

Thanks all for the insights.

I got the reason for the event from a local who had BWI twr on at the time.

Apparently something I missed listening to LiveATC was that there was a runway change as 1155 was being routed in. 1155 was the last flight cleared on the 33L approach. Traffic was moved to 10 for arrivals.

When they switched over to BWI tower, conflicting traffic was ready cleared to land on 10 and 1155 could not be cleared to land on 33L and advised to go missed and join traffic for 10.

So that mystery is solved...

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BA777FO
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:58 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, most don’t require a report after a go-around, missed approach, aborted approach, unless there was a significant hazard outside the aircraft, say a near-miss. The point of “no fault “ go arounds is to not inhibit doing so with reports and investigations.


That's interesting. We report a go-around regardless of a reason (ATC insuced due loss of separation, unstable, cabin not secure, tech issue etc). It's not to lay blame but to spot trends. Now if you continue and land off of an unstable aporoach you'll get in trouble, but an unstable aporoach that results in a go-around will be classed as a go-around and not an unstable approach and you'll be thanked.

Reports aren't about putting blame on people but understanding root causes to prevent repeats - this can't happen with only selective reporting, surely? We all have monitoring equipment onboard so anything that happens can be spotted regardless of whether or not thete's a report. This is what worries me some of the ME3 - the fear of reprisal leads to things not being reported and something that could have been stopped potentially snowballs.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:03 pm

zeke wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
That's the speed graph in yellow. Altitude is in blue. The OP highlighted the time of the go around (yellow vertical line) to give the data snapshot at the bottom. 154 knots and 700ft.


You are correct I got them the wrong way around. But worth pointing out the altitude and speeds are not the altitude and speed seen in the cockpit.

The numbers are pressure altitude and gps ground speed.
No but the video shows they aren't far off either:

https://youtu.be/2x8Xc6cJ3CQ



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CosmicCruiser
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:56 pm

BA777FO wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, most don’t require a report after a go-around, missed approach, aborted approach, unless there was a significant hazard outside the aircraft, say a near-miss. The point of “no fault “ go arounds is to not inhibit doing so with reports and investigations.


That's interesting. We report a go-around regardless of a reason (ATC insuced due loss of separation, unstable, cabin not secure, tech issue etc). It's not to lay blame but to spot trends. Now if you continue and land off of an unstable aporoach you'll get in trouble, but an unstable aporoach that results in a go-around will be classed as a go-around and not an unstable approach and you'll be thanked.

Reports aren't about putting blame on people but understanding root causes to prevent repeats - this can't happen with only selective reporting, surely? We all have monitoring equipment onboard so anything that happens can be spotted regardless of whether or not thete's a report. This is what worries me some of the ME3 - the fear of reprisal leads to things not being reported and something that could have been stopped potentially snowballs.


Your last sentence is what I was alluding to. Most guys wouldn't think anything about it but there is always that percentage that would believe if the co. is tracking something there's an ulterior motive behind it.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:15 pm

Just to add a little fuel to the fire, there is a trend amongst some airlines, non-FAA, to put less emphasis on the Missed Approach and more on "rejected approach" I falls under the heading of Evidenced Based Training, and follows the logic that says pilots have been descending to published minimums for years and either landing or executing the pulished missed approach. It's ingrained from the very beginning and for the most part seldom needs a do over, On the other hand when the aircraft is say 1500' above mins and is told to go around, the results can be dramatically different at times. So if during your recurrent or initial training you fly the perfect missed on day one, that maneuver would be put aside in favor of something more challenging. I believe this is gaining favor with EASA, but last time I heard, the FAA was having a hard time getting there arms wrapped aroud it. Time will tell...
 
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zeke
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:24 pm

BravoOne wrote:
On the other hand when the aircraft is say 1500' above mins and is told to go around, the results can be dramatically different at times. So if during your recurrent or initial training you fly the perfect missed on day one, that maneuver would be put aside in favor of something more challenging. I believe this is gaining favor with EASA, but last time I heard, the FAA was having a hard time getting there arms wrapped aroud it. Time will tell...


This is Airbus SOP, it’s called “DISCONTINUED APPROACH”, below 1000’ a standard go around must always be performed, above 1000’ crew have the option to do a discontinued approach. As far as I am aware something similar is not In the Boeing SOPs which I find odd as often the MCP altitude is set below the aircraft altitude on approach.

The crux of this Airbus procedure is to fly level for a few seconds. It may seem simple, however flying level for a few seconds often is all that is needed to recover from a high energy state to something more manageable, the crew to take stock of where they are, what altitude and path they are going to climb/track on, and to disarm the approach modes to prevent an inadvertent capture of an approach aid.

I have done this a few times in flight and the flying level for a few seconds to me is a great crew mindset changer, going from an approach mindset to a go around mindset. Previously we would transition from approach to go around, and a go around at 1500 ft might be too much performance for a small climb of 500 ft to missed approach altitude, and you have thrust reduction altitude in there as well.

Airbus FCOM wrote:
In order to prepare the aircraft and the crew for a standard go-around from a position of high energy, or to execute a pre-emptive go-around:

If at or above 1 000 ft:
ANNOUNCE or ORDER ALT-GO
ALT PRESS
If the autopilot is engaged, the PF will press ALT, otherwise he will order PM to press it

CAUTION
A risk exists of a glideslope sidelobe being captured after pressing ALT. If this occurs, the aircraft may pitch aggressively. Either perform ALT-GO again, or continue with a standard go-around.

Aircraft below FCU Altitude:
When the aircraft has started to stabilise, the FCU missed approach altitude is confirmed set, and the crew are ready:
STANDARD GO-AROUND PERFORM

Refer to Go Around - Go Around Initiation

Aircraft above FCU altitude:
Disarm all approach modes
Select target altitude and adjust V/S as appropriate (which may include ALT)

If below 1 000 ft:
A standard go-around must be performed.
If TOGA thrust is not required, set the thrust levers to TOGA detent then retard the thrust levers as required.
// END
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BA777FO
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Re: Go around vs aborted approach?

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:51 pm

zeke wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
On the other hand when the aircraft is say 1500' above mins and is told to go around, the results can be dramatically different at times. So if during your recurrent or initial training you fly the perfect missed on day one, that maneuver would be put aside in favor of something more challenging. I believe this is gaining favor with EASA, but last time I heard, the FAA was having a hard time getting there arms wrapped aroud it. Time will tell...


This is Airbus SOP, it’s called “DISCONTINUED APPROACH”, below 1000’ a standard go around must always be performed, above 1000’ crew have the option to do a discontinued approach. As far as I am aware something similar is not In the Boeing SOPs which I find odd as often the MCP altitude is set below the aircraft altitude on approach.

The crux of this Airbus procedure is to fly level for a few seconds. It may seem simple, however flying level for a few seconds often is all that is needed to recover from a high energy state to something more manageable, the crew to take stock of where they are, what altitude and path they are going to climb/track on, and to disarm the approach modes to prevent an inadvertent capture of an approach aid.

I have done this a few times in flight and the flying level for a few seconds to me is a great crew mindset changer, going from an approach mindset to a go around mindset. Previously we would transition from approach to go around, and a go around at 1500 ft might be too much performance for a small climb of 500 ft to missed approach altitude, and you have thrust reduction altitude in there as well.

Airbus FCOM wrote:
In order to prepare the aircraft and the crew for a standard go-around from a position of high energy, or to execute a pre-emptive go-around:

If at or above 1 000 ft:
ANNOUNCE or ORDER ALT-GO
ALT PRESS
If the autopilot is engaged, the PF will press ALT, otherwise he will order PM to press it

CAUTION
A risk exists of a glideslope sidelobe being captured after pressing ALT. If this occurs, the aircraft may pitch aggressively. Either perform ALT-GO again, or continue with a standard go-around.

Aircraft below FCU Altitude:
When the aircraft has started to stabilise, the FCU missed approach altitude is confirmed set, and the crew are ready:
STANDARD GO-AROUND PERFORM

Refer to Go Around - Go Around Initiation

Aircraft above FCU altitude:
Disarm all approach modes
Select target altitude and adjust V/S as appropriate (which may include ALT)

If below 1 000 ft:
A standard go-around must be performed.
If TOGA thrust is not required, set the thrust levers to TOGA detent then retard the thrust levers as required.
// END


It's our SOP, which I assume us derived from Boeing, to use TO/GA for a go-around initiated below 1,000ft.

Also, having seen in the sim a go-around using TO/GA from 1,500ft with a go-around stop altitude of 2,000ft the AFDS on the 777 handles it really well. One push of the TO/GA targets a 2,000fpm climb in the go-around, it requires a 2nd push to get full thrust. It recognises quickly if it's close to altitude capture and levels off just fine. Other options of disconnecting the autopilot and resetting the flight directors, or using FLCH or V/S just aren't as tidy in my experience. Plus a press of TO/GA resets the ECL to the after takeoff checklist, no other method does that.

I'm not sure what you mean about thr MCP altitude being below the aircraft altitude on approach? That would only happen on two occassions: 1) an RNAV approach, when MDA is set until 300ft below your missed approach altitude or 2) before glideslope capture on an ILS. On the RNAV approach all that's needed is to reset the missed approach altitude and consider which mode is appropriate (TO/GA or perhaps V/S) and on the ILS you'd simply allow it to go into ALT and fly level without arming G/S. That would be an unusually early missed approach though.

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