x1234
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What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:46 pm

What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9? I read that airlines chiefly deploy the B77W on routes where cargo capacity is king since its the biggest twin engine cargo hauler ever made. How does this compare to the A350-900/1000 and the B787-8/9? I'm really interested in knowing the differences between the B77W and A350-900/1000.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:52 pm

I believe in terms of just LD3 capacity the 77W, A359/K and 787-9/10 are the kings. As the 350’s abs 787’s are more efficient the payload range at high cargo volumes will be a bit better
 
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zeke
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:07 pm

x1234 wrote:
What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9? I read that airlines chiefly deploy the B77W on routes where cargo capacity is king since its the biggest twin engine cargo hauler ever made. How does this compare to the A350-900/1000 and the B787-8/9? I'm really interested in knowing the differences between the B77W and A350-900/1000.


35K lifts about 5000-10000 kg more payload than a 77W (depending on cabin configuration) and can carry the payload over a further distance.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:29 pm

zeke wrote:
x1234 wrote:
What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9? I read that airlines chiefly deploy the B77W on routes where cargo capacity is king since its the biggest twin engine cargo hauler ever made. How does this compare to the A350-900/1000 and the B787-8/9? I'm really interested in knowing the differences between the B77W and A350-900/1000.


35K lifts about 5000-10000 kg more payload than a 77W (depending on cabin configuration) and can carry the payload over a further distance.

Zeke, I am curious about the 35K’s range at MZFW, I know the 359 is close to 6000nm or even surpassing that as a new build.
 
trex8
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:09 pm

space also important besides weight

772 32LD3 . 10 pallets
77W . 44LD3 . 14 pallets

788 . 28lD3 . 9 pallets
789 . 36LD3 . 11 pallets
7810 40LD3 . 13 pallets

A332/8 . 26LD3 . 8 pallets
A333/9 32LD3 . 11 pallets
A359 . 36LD3 11 pallets
A35J . 44LD3 . 14pallets



https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... ps/787.pdf
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... 2lr3er.pdf
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support ... stics.html
 
tommy1808
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:35 am

trex8 wrote:
A332/8 . 26LD3 . 8 pallets
A333/9 32LD3 . 11 pallets
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support ... stics.html


Did Airbus remove the +1LD3, less bulk cargo area from his offerings?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:07 am

trex8 wrote:
space also important besides weight
7810 40LD3 . 13 pallets


just picked out the 7810.

40 LD3 @ 4.5m³ each present a volume of 180m³
@ .2t/m³ (lowest density stuff ) that is 36t of belly load.

57t payload max overall.

leaves 21t for pax ~= 210, an extremely low loadfactor.

to come to my point to make:
the belly volume capacity is excessive, partly useable only.
Looks good on 4color glossies.
Murphy is an optimist
 
IgorD
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:15 am

I wonder what are the average freight loads on widebody aircraft. Indeed a plane can be loaded with cargo up to the MZFW, for a typical 77W the max freight is probably around 25 ton. I.e. 170 DOW + 40 ton pax and bags + 27 ton freight = 237 MZFW. This assumes the MTOW is not exceeded :)

But what are the typical loads? Many goods are voluminous, so probably the volume capacity in some cases is earlier up than weight. Comercial reasons, trade imbalance and so on impact the loads. Can we have here real world examples?
 
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zeke
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:49 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
Zeke, I am curious about the 35K’s range at MZFW, I know the 359 is close to 6000nm or even surpassing that as a new build.


I think it is around the same range ballpark as the 77W, however as range is increased less payload is offloaded for fuel as it burns a couple of tonnes less per hour and flies faster.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:27 pm

IgorD wrote:
I wonder what are the average freight loads on widebody aircraft. Indeed a plane can be loaded with cargo up to the MZFW, for a typical 77W the max freight is probably around 25 ton. I.e. 170 DOW + 40 ton pax and bags + 27 ton freight = 237 MZFW. This assumes the MTOW is not exceeded :)

But what are the typical loads? Many goods are voluminous, so probably the volume capacity in some cases is earlier up than weight. Comercial reasons, trade imbalance and so on impact the loads. Can we have here real world examples?


In my experience typical cargo carried on A333/787 is on order of 10-15 Tonnes - but can be as high as 20-something, or as low as zero, depending on particular airline and route. I can only guess Asian carriers carry more cargo than eg. European ones. I have yet to see an airplane maxed out on MZFW. In operations I have flown for, even with full pax load the plane is typically significantly below MZFW.

P.S. When I flew A333 for a certain Icelandic LCC, we carried approx 15 Tonnes of Fish in the cargo hold on every flight to LAX. This famous A. Net myth is actually true! :bigthumbsup:
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
WIederling
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:46 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
P.S. When I flew A333 for a certain Icelandic LCC, we carried approx 15 Tonnes of Fish in the cargo hold on every flight to LAX. This famous A. Net myth is actually true! :bigthumbsup:

ROFL.
Frozen or still twitchy :-?

Is fish at the top of "dense freight" @~1t/m³
Murphy is an optimist
 
trex8
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
trex8 wrote:
A332/8 . 26LD3 . 8 pallets
A333/9 32LD3 . 11 pallets
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support ... stics.html


Did Airbus remove the +1LD3, less bulk cargo area from his offerings?

best regards
Thomas

Dunno, not on those acaps, maybe its an option rarely taken up??
 
IgorD
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:56 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
IgorD wrote:
I wonder what are the average freight loads on widebody aircraft. Indeed a plane can be loaded with cargo up to the MZFW, for a typical 77W the max freight is probably around 25 ton. I.e. 170 DOW + 40 ton pax and bags + 27 ton freight = 237 MZFW. This assumes the MTOW is not exceeded :)

But what are the typical loads? Many goods are voluminous, so probably the volume capacity in some cases is earlier up than weight. Comercial reasons, trade imbalance and so on impact the loads. Can we have here real world examples?


In my experience typical cargo carried on A333/787 is on order of 10-15 Tonnes - but can be as high as 20-something, or as low as zero, depending on particular airline and route. I can only guess Asian carriers carry more cargo than eg. European ones. I have yet to see an airplane maxed out on MZFW. In operations I have flown for, even with full pax load the plane is typically significantly below MZFW.

P.S. When I flew A333 for a certain Icelandic LCC, we carried approx 15 Tonnes of Fish in the cargo hold on every flight to LAX. This famous A. Net myth is actually true! :bigthumbsup:


Thanks. AF-KL publish freight capacity of their aircraft, it looks like it is what's left weight-wise after a full load of pax.

https://www.afklcargo.com/WW/en/common/ ... /fleet.jsp

Though some data seem strange 77E and 744 both show only 12,5 ton, while 333 show 17,5. 789 and 7810 look like combies indeed with 20 and 24 ton resp.

Kl published their traffic statistics, where IIRC Asian routes showed cargo loads of 80%, N.America of some 60% and the Carribean of around 45%. My interpretation is that they refer to the weight capacity utilization per aircraft type.

Interesting.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:16 pm

The difference between MZFW and operating weight on the 35K and 77W is about the same, so until they are limited by fuel load, their max payload is virtually identical.

The difference between MTOW and MZFW is about 113T on the 77W and 93T on the 35K, meaning the 77W can carry about 20 more tonnes of fuel when at max payload than the 35K. Of course, it will burn more of it per hour (around 17% more for a similar payload per my observations).

All in all, those 2 are very evenly matched in payload and range capability, but one is, obviously, much more frugal than the other.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
FGITD
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:51 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:

P.S. When I flew A333 for a certain Icelandic LCC, we carried approx 15 Tonnes of Fish in the cargo hold on every flight to LAX. This famous A. Net myth is actually true! :bigthumbsup:


I've always maintained that airports are glorified modern fish markets. Couldn't tell you how many turnarounds where we've both off and on loaded pallet after pallet of fish.

In terms of average load...very difficult to say, due to the factors involved. More pax, more cans, less cargo, etc etc.

Will say though, in my experience the 789 and 77w are phenomenal cargo carriers. Can't recall ever dropping cargo due to space or weight constraints. Looking forward to seeing what the 350 can do next.
 
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Polot
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:52 pm

WIederling wrote:
trex8 wrote:
space also important besides weight
7810 40LD3 . 13 pallets


just picked out the 7810.

40 LD3 @ 4.5m³ each present a volume of 180m³
@ .2t/m³ (lowest density stuff ) that is 36t of belly load.

57t payload max overall.

leaves 21t for pax ~= 210, an extremely low loadfactor.

to come to my point to make:
the belly volume capacity is excessive, partly useable only.
Looks good on 4color glossies.

If you look at like that then basically every wide body now has “excessive” capacity.

For example on the A35K you would have 39.6t of cargo, with 68t max payload (stolen from Wikipedia, not sure how accurate) that is only 28.4t for passengers, also low for a A350-1000.

The reality is of course that LD3s are not stuffed completely full.
 
WIederling
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:31 pm

Polot wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Looks good on 4color glossies.

If you look at like that then basically every wide body now has “excessive” capacity.

For example on the A35K you would have 39.6t of cargo, with 68t max payload (stolen from Wikipedia, not sure how accurate) that is only 28.4t for passengers, also low for a A350-1000.


Why i wrote: "just picked out the 7810". :-))

The reality is of course that LD3s are not stuffed completely full.


I already worked my numbers with 200kg/m³ that is some fluffy package carrier stuff.
( styrofoam is already more than 50kg/m³ ).
Murphy is an optimist
 
IgorD
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
Polot wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Looks good on 4color glossies.

If you look at like that then basically every wide body now has “excessive” capacity.

For example on the A35K you would have 39.6t of cargo, with 68t max payload (stolen from Wikipedia, not sure how accurate) that is only 28.4t for passengers, also low for a A350-1000.


Why i wrote: "just picked out the 7810". :-))

The reality is of course that LD3s are not stuffed completely full.


I already worked my numbers with 200kg/m³ that is some fluffy package carrier stuff.
( styrofoam is already more than 50kg/m³ ).

An ICAO document refers to an IATA survey saying tha the average density is 161 kg per m3.
With regard to air cargo, some 75 per cent of the air carriers sampled also agreed that, for
statistical purposes, an average cargo density of 161 kg per cubic meter is representative of their
international and domestic routes, be it all cargo or mixed operations

https://www.icao.int/Meetings/STA10/Doc ... 005_en.pdf

There was a paper by university of Antwerpen that showed that average cargo density was increasing towards 200 kg/m3 though cannot find it now.

Interestingly, the cargo capacity is often stated in the number of LD3 positions available, while the majority of cargo travels on the pallets.
 
WIederling
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:52 pm

IgorD wrote:
Interestingly, the cargo capacity is often stated in the number of LD3 positions available, while the majority of cargo travels on the pallets.


LD3 is (fixed) volume a pallet is area.?
Murphy is an optimist
 
IgorD
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
IgorD wrote:
Interestingly, the cargo capacity is often stated in the number of LD3 positions available, while the majority of cargo travels on the pallets.


LD3 is (fixed) volume a pallet is area.?

A pallet has a certain carrying volume that is limited by the height and curvature of the belly. Pallets and cans sit in the same space -- pallets are probably better for the general cargo as less space is lost between the items and max item size is larger.

How heavy is a typical pallet? In an order of 2 ton?
 
WIederling
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Re: What are the differences in cargo capacity between the B77W, B77E, A350-900/1000 and 787-8/9?

Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:59 pm

IgorD wrote:
How heavy is a typical pallet? In an order of 2 ton?


P6P : 120kg ( Tare :-))

Cargo: up to 6.8 t ( depending on aircraft, main deck, lower deck ).
Murphy is an optimist

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