Sokes
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What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:14 pm

Image
source: https://www.icf.com/insights/transporta ... t-analysis

It's only in 2017 that the A330-200 became rather irrelevant in new deliveries.
I assumed for 6 hour flights with cargo demand the A330-300 is a good enough aircraft with cheap capital cost. I expected for more demanding missions the B787 would be the obvious choice. I believe transatlantic A330s get replaced by B787s.

So what are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Lpbri
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:42 pm

I think the best case for choosing the A330 is if you already have them in your fleet.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:01 pm

+ A338 is a 251t MTOW plane vs 228t, so if you are MTOW limited you can look in this direction
 
426Shadow
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:57 pm

Your question already has bias in it. You probably aren't going to get the answers you want.
We are all just fanboys, our opinions don't make or break businesses.
 
Sokes
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:41 am

426Shadow wrote:
Your question already has bias in it. You probably aren't going to get the answers you want.


Does my question have bias or does your answer have some bias towards my question? I already got good answers.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
johns624
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:14 am

Sokes wrote:
426Shadow wrote:
Your question already has bias in it. You probably aren't going to get the answers you want.


Does my question have bias or does your answer have some bias towards my question? I already got good answers.
No, you say that you think that 330s will be replaced by 787s. The logical answer is that they get replaced by 330neos.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:15 am

johns624 wrote:
No, you say that you think that 330s will be replaced by 787s. The logical answer is that they get replaced by 330neos.

Air india, Royal Jordanian and Jetstar directly replaced their A330-200 with the 787-8. Plenty of other airlines with retiring A330 fleets with 787 arriving into the fleet.

With each new generation the replacement aircraft are getting lighter. The 97t A321 replacing the 115t 757 is a good example. The 254t 787-10 replacing Air New Zealands 297t 777-200ER is another good example.

A330-200: 120t OEW - 242t MTOW - 7250nm range

787-8: 120t OEW - 228t MTOW - 7355mm range

A330-800: 132t OEW 251t MTOW - 8150nm range

The A330-800 is going the wrong way.
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:51 am

Advantages for A330-200 (vs 787-8)
- Ridiculously cheap to lease up, a combination of lease returns and airline bankruptcies means that its just not difficult to get 6-8 year old A330s for like ~$200-250k/month, which is on par with what similar age 737NGs/A321s are going for these days.
- Likely better fleet commonality given existing A330 widebody penetration among airlines
Advantage for 787-8 (vs A330-200)
- Cheaper to operate in terms of both fuel and maintenance (advantage increases with longer routes)
- Potential for common type rating with future NMA (for shorter ranged, smaller A/C), A330 is only common type rated with A350 (an even larger, longer-ranged A/C) while A321LR/XLR requires a different type rating.
 
Sokes
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:02 pm

johns624 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
426Shadow wrote:
Your question already has bias in it. You probably aren't going to get the answers you want.


Does my question have bias or does your answer have some bias towards my question? I already got good answers.
No, you say that you think that 330s will be replaced by 787s. The logical answer is that they get replaced by 330neos.


I consider economic sciences as social sciences. So I don't expect logic. I grant often there is logic in it. But is your statement supported by evidence?

I conclude the A330-200 has advantages in fleet communality and capital cost. Thanks all for your answers so far.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
VSMUT
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:38 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
With each new generation the replacement aircraft are getting lighter. The 97t A321 replacing the 115t 757 is a good example. The 254t 787-10 replacing Air New Zealands 297t 777-200ER is another good example.


Too simplistic. You need to compare OEW with MTOM to gain a worthwhile comparison. 254 tons minus the 135 ton empty weight gives you 119 tons to play with. For the 777-200ER that figure is 159 tons. While there is no doubt the 787 makes up some of that through lower fuel burn, Air New Zealand is certainly giving up some capability.

IMO, you should be making the 787 comparison with a direct competitor/predecessor, the A330. The 787-9 only weighs around 1 ton less than the A330-300, but takes 13 tons more payload while at the same time burning 500 kg less per hour.

Or the 787-10 vs 777-200A: Both have a 135 ton OEW, the 777-200A has a lower 247 ton MTOM and a higher fuel burn.

So they are not really getting lighter, but they are squeezing much more capability out of them.


RJMAZ wrote:
The A330-800 is going the wrong way.


Well it's not really a new generation, just a warmed over previous one ;)

AFAIK, the 737MAX, Embraer E2 and A320neo also got heavier.
 
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zeke
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:18 am

RJMAZ wrote:

A330-200: 120t OEW - 242t MTOW - 7250nm range

A330-800: 132t OEW 251t MTOW - 8150nm range


How on earth does a A338 gain 12 tonnes in weight ?

From the engine TCDS

Trent 700 - 6160 kg https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... %20700.pdf
Trent 7000 - 6445 kg https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... e%2010.pdf

So the engines are 570 kg heavier, where is the other 11430 kg........that’s rights, it doesn’t exist.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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SQ22
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:29 am

Please keep this thread on topic or it will be locked. Thanks.
 
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zeke
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:34 pm

Sokes wrote:

So what are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?


In terms of operating the main advantage of the A330 is the low cost of entry, the A330 currently has a greater market penetration in terms of customers and MROs worldwide. The 787 being newer has a smaller network which will grow over time. A330s are often easily leased short term, this was evidenced during the 787 delivery delays where A330s were used by many airlines as interim lift. There is a good supply of cheaper overhauled parts and engines as many A330&A340s have been retired and dissembled for parts. As the A330/A340 share the same fuselage and avionics, many parts are interchangeable.

Per the “Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing - Winter 2020” thread viewtopic.php?t=1440991 the current purchase price for the A330-200 are between $14.0 - 80.0M, with monthly lease rates of $140-610,000. The 788 is significantly more expensive at $70.0 - 124.0M to purchase and $625-980,000 to lease. Some airlines like Royal Jordanian have said the 787-8 could not be operated profitably and cancelled some aircraft. They were one of the carriers the dry leased A330s after they ordered 787s due to the extended delivery delays. Source https://blueswandaily.com/royal-jordani ... rowbodies/

In terms of payload the A330-200 will carry more payload than the 787-8, the 787-8 however will have a lower fuel burn. Airbus years ago in one of their presentations showed this graphically. The advantages and disadvantages here are actually variable, depending on seating configuration, fuel price, and maintenance costs.

Image

A330-200s have already have active programs for both tanker and freighter conversions. Some ex-QF A330-200s were converted to tankers and are in service (source https://www.qantas.com/travel/airlines/ ... /global/en ) and DHL took delivery of the first converted A330-200 freighter in 2017 (source https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipme ... a330-300f/ )

On the long term maintenance side and viability of the A330 airframe, the limit of validity for the A330-200, -200F, -300, and -900 variants, this is 180000FH/60000FC, whichever occurs first. (Source https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/mr ... intenance/ )

The longer term viability of A330 parts is assured with the A330-800/900. Originally in response to the 787 Airbus launched the “A350” which at the time was a A330 with new engines and a composite wing.

Image

The market response to that was not overly positive, mainly due to a lot of marketing hype about what the 787 would deliver. Over the next 5 years or so it became apparent to airlines that a lot of the hype was unfounded (like the 787 rollout with fasteners from Home Depot), there were numerous delays with certification, delivery, and then reliability once in service. During this period the A330 sales remained strong, some years actually outselling the 787.

For passenger comfort, on longer flights the A330/A340 already had a maximum cabin altitude below 6,000 ft, they had the option of HEPA filters, and cabin humidifiers. At cruise altitude the air outside is very dry, most of the water in the airframe actually comes out of passenger mouths. Air Mauritius was the first airline to have cabin humidifiers installed, they featured on their A340s.

The A330 was also the first airframe to be certified beyond 180 minutes (source https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... nutes.html ).

Airbus revisited the original A350 design, instead of putting a new wing on the A330 they went back to a NEO option with some aerodynamic improvements which now has lead to the A330-800/900. The continued production of the A330-800/900 means longer term support for the A330-200/300 will be there.

Image

Image


Now airlines operating the A330-200 can have a choice looking at replacement if they want to go with a smaller frame such as the A321LR, the 787-8, or A330neo, or just stick with the cheap reliable A330-200.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Sokes
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:02 pm

zeke wrote:
...
In terms of payload the A330-200 will carry more payload than the 787-8, the 787-8 however will have a lower fuel burn.
...
On the long term maintenance side and viability of the A330 airframe, the limit of validity for the A330-200, -200F, -300, and -900 variants, this is 180000FH/60000FC, whichever occurs first. (Source https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/mr ... intenance/ )



Great answer. Thanks for the effort.
50 or 60% higher lease rate for a new plane is a lot. Even though Boeing piled up such a lot of deferred production cost. Can we assume that a carbon fiber wing is damn expensive? Any Bombardier employees here which can answer that question?

I also conclude that for an airline for which an A330-200 is just right, neither the B787-8 nor B787-9 is the right plane. I read this before that A and B don't make products that compete one by one. It also makes sense.
I guess that answers my question why the -200 continued selling.

Another question:
Anybody knows if retired frames reach 180.000FH/ 60.000FC? Sounds like 30+ years to me.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:15 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
No, you say that you think that 330s will be replaced by 787s. The logical answer is that they get replaced by 330neos.

Air india, Royal Jordanian and Jetstar directly replaced their A330-200 with the 787-8.


AI had a very small fleet of A330s.....the 787-8 was a replacement for their A310 fleet....
 
VSMUT
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:35 pm

Gr8Circle wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
No, you say that you think that 330s will be replaced by 787s. The logical answer is that they get replaced by 330neos.

Air india, Royal Jordanian and Jetstar directly replaced their A330-200 with the 787-8.


AI had a very small fleet of A330s.....the 787-8 was a replacement for their A310 fleet....


It was only 2 of them, because of 787 delays. Weren't they wet leased or something?

Wasn't it the same story with Royal Jordanian? Delayed 787s necessitated a temporary A310 replacement.
 
strfyr51
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:22 am

Sokes wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Sokes wrote:

Does my question have bias or does your answer have some bias towards my question? I already got good answers.
No, you say that you think that 330s will be replaced by 787s. The logical answer is that they get replaced by 330neos.


I consider economic sciences as social sciences. So I don't expect logic. I grant often there is logic in it. But is your statement supported by evidence?

I conclude the A330-200 has advantages in fleet communality and capital cost. Thanks all for your answers so far.

In all these comparisons? Did you bother to look at DIRECT operating costs? Fuel vs range uplift? That might well be where you find your answers.
All of this A vs B stuff is only good for debate. But where the rubber meets the Road? Which airplane gives you the best bang for the Buck Operating ??
So incentives might be good? Operating costs are King of the Stats! Because Money ALWAYS Matters!
 
VSMUT
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:22 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
johns624 wrote:
No, you say that you think that 330s will be replaced by 787s. The logical answer is that they get replaced by 330neos.


I consider economic sciences as social sciences. So I don't expect logic. I grant often there is logic in it. But is your statement supported by evidence?

I conclude the A330-200 has advantages in fleet communality and capital cost. Thanks all for your answers so far.

In all these comparisons? Did you bother to look at DIRECT operating costs? Fuel vs range uplift? That might well be where you find your answers.
All of this A vs B stuff is only good for debate. But where the rubber meets the Road? Which airplane gives you the best bang for the Buck Operating ??
So incentives might be good? Operating costs are King of the Stats! Because Money ALWAYS Matters!


Because the biggest cost of all is acquisition?

viewtopic.php?t=1422705

Leasing an A330-200 could save you anywhere between $850.000 to $35.000 per month. Buying an A330-200 you would save up to $104 mio. USD. The A330 might use a lot more fuel than the 787, but you also get a lot of fuel for $850.000/104 mio.

Money always matters.
 
Sokes
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:52 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I conclude the A330-200 has advantages in fleet communality and capital cost. Thanks all for your answers so far.

In all these comparisons?

I believe you answered to my post 10 without reading my post 15.

strfyr51 wrote:
Did you bother to look at DIRECT operating costs?

Did you bother to look at Zeke's post 14?

strfyr51 wrote:
Fuel vs range uplift?

I don't understand the expression. I tried to google, but didn't succeed.

strfyr51 wrote:
All of this A vs B stuff is only good for debate. But where the rubber meets the Road? Which airplane gives you the best bang for the Buck Operating ??
So incentives might be good? Operating costs are King of the Stats! Because Money ALWAYS Matters!

Again I'm not sure if I understand. I believe you mean to say that the B787-8 has better operating costs. That's what I assumed until I saw the chart which I posted in the OP. In post 14 Zeke pointed out that the B787-8 has indeed better operating cost, but that payload and therefore revenue potential of A330-200 is higher.

I'm still not sure if cheaper capital cost or more revenue potential is the dominant factor, but a combination of these two and also fleet commonality seems to be the answer why A330-200 continued selling.
Nobody disputes that the B787-8 has the better operating cost.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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CALTECH
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:46 pm

Gr8Circle wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
johns624 wrote:
No, you say that you think that 330s will be replaced by 787s. The logical answer is that they get replaced by 330neos.

Air india, Royal Jordanian and Jetstar directly replaced their A330-200 with the 787-8.


AI had a very small fleet of A330s.....the 787-8 was a replacement for their A310 fleet....


Interesting, wonder why Air India replaced their A330s with B787s....

'Air India is moving forward planned Boeing 787-8 operations on Mumbai – Chennai – Singapore service, which will now begin from 24AUG14 (BOM departure), instead of 25OCT14. The Boeing 787-8 will replace Airbus A330-200 aircraft on this route.'

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/33 ... ndias.html

"We are planning to eventually replace the A330s with the 787s. The plans will be initiated by next year when the lease of the A330s runs out," a senior Air India official said."

Read more at: https://www.deccanherald.com/content/33 ... ndias.html
You are here.
 
VSMUT
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:23 am

CALTECH wrote:
Interesting, wonder why Air India replaced their A330s with B787s....


As I noted, the 2 A330s were only a temporary replacement for the ageing A310s, because of the 787 delays. They were both second-hand frames leased from Air Berlin. They also had a 767 from FlyGlobeSpan at a point for much the same reason. It was Air India's plan to go all-787 well before they got the pair of A330s.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:22 pm

VSMUT wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
Interesting, wonder why Air India replaced their A330s with B787s....


As I noted, the 2 A330s were only a temporary replacement for the ageing A310s, because of the 787 delays. They were both second-hand frames leased from Air Berlin. They also had a 767 from FlyGlobeSpan at a point for much the same reason. It was Air India's plan to go all-787 well before they got the pair of A330s.


Seems the A-330 and A-350 lost out to the B 787, as the poster posted above.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-india- ... 44.article

"Its purchase request covers 35 firm orders and 15 options. The firm order portion is expected to cover 20 787-8s, 10 777-300ERs and five 777-200LRs. Air India says it hopes approval will be granted around the middle of next year, allowing for delivery from the end of 2006.

Airbus has meanwhile cried foul, saying it was not a fair competition as the A330, rather than the more suitable A350, was evaluated against the 787. Air India has rejected these criticisms, however, calling Airbus a sore loser. But there are some who believe the controversy may further delay government approvals."
You are here.
 
VSMUT
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Re: What are advantages/ disadvantages of A330-200 versus B787-8?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:07 pm

CALTECH wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
Interesting, wonder why Air India replaced their A330s with B787s....


As I noted, the 2 A330s were only a temporary replacement for the ageing A310s, because of the 787 delays. They were both second-hand frames leased from Air Berlin. They also had a 767 from FlyGlobeSpan at a point for much the same reason. It was Air India's plan to go all-787 well before they got the pair of A330s.


Seems the A-330 and A-350 lost out to the B 787, as the poster posted above.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-india- ... 44.article

"Its purchase request covers 35 firm orders and 15 options. The firm order portion is expected to cover 20 787-8s, 10 777-300ERs and five 777-200LRs. Air India says it hopes approval will be granted around the middle of next year, allowing for delivery from the end of 2006.

Airbus has meanwhile cried foul, saying it was not a fair competition as the A330, rather than the more suitable A350, was evaluated against the 787. Air India has rejected these criticisms, however, calling Airbus a sore loser. But there are some who believe the controversy may further delay government approvals."


True, but that was way back when the original RFP was issued, several years before the pair of leased A330s joined them.
In hindsight, probably a wise decision anyway, since the A350mk1 and later A350-800 were both dropped. The A350-900 is too big if what Air India wanted was a 787-8 sized plane.

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