CaptRawData
Topic Author
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:47 am

RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:13 am

Can anyone provide any info on the 1500' platform shown on this ILS approach chart at RJAA. Its above the min safe height but I'm at a loss to know the reason why it's there

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fNqR-r ... p=drivesdk
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19694
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:22 am

On the Navtech chart for the ILS Y 16, BIRDY shows "RECOM 1800", which is for the ILS. However it also says "LOC:1500", with a note "LOC: RECOM 1771". Meaning, if memory serves, that if you're doing the LOC approach (GS out), the minimum altitude at BIRDY is 1500, with 1771 recommended.

I guess this is the Jeppesen symbology? (I don't speak Jeppesen chart.)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mmo
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Re: RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:42 am

Just pure speculation but, I think if you didn't have another stepdown fix at BIRDY, the approach would not meet the TERPS criteria. You would be at 2800' at BIRDY and you would have an FPA of almost 6 degrees, which is quite excessive. Under TERPS if the descent gradient is over 400'/mile then you would have to limit the approach designation to a circling approach which would have minimums. It could also be there for noise.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:48 pm

Is it a TERPS procedure or PANS-OPS? I suspect the 1500’ is to reduce descent gradient on final.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:21 pm

Actually, I looked it up, Civil Japan uses PANS-OPS.
 
mmo
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:01 pm

Under PANS-OPS, the maximum descent gradient on the final approach non-precision approach is 5.2 degrees, which if the 1500' restriction was not there would be exceeded.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
aeropix
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Re: RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:20 pm

Surprisingly, the LIDO presentation makes it a bit more clear. It's the step-downs for the LOC-DME approach. 1500 to birds, 730 to D3.5 ITM, then MDA of 510 for cat C/D til the MissedApproachPoint at D0.7 ITM. It's been a while to use JEPPS but I believe the shaded grey altitudes are for obstacle clearance (outside the FAF) and definitely do NOT represent the step altitudes outside of the FAF. They seem to be the step-downs inside the FAF, though so maybe there's a dual meaning, which you would have to look up in the Jeppesen introduction.
 
aeropix
Posts: 260
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Re: RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:58 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Actually, I looked it up, Civil Japan uses PANS-OPS.


On the LIDO charts its listed as TERPS at least for the circling radii.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 4909
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: RJAA approach chart question

Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:41 pm

This from FAA OpsSpecs C052,

Japan primarily uses ICAO PANS-OPS for procedure design but does have significant differences published in their AIP. The differences include circling area calculations, speeds for procedure calculations and the method for reducing the Obstacle Clearance Altitude (Height).


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