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Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 4:49 pm
by dennys
Hello Dears ,

On old ELAL timetables the two types B-707/B720Bs are mixed up . Nethertheless i see some flights making two stops on the way to NYC , such as TLV ZRH LON NYC . Can some of you confirm the LY 720B flew NYC ?

Many thanks for memories !

Cheers

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 8:32 am
by iRISH251
Unlikely, I'd have thought., since the carrier had more capable 707-320B/Cs and 707-420s at the same time. The 720B was really a medium-haul aircraft. Multi-stop routeings were not unusual in those times.

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 2:17 pm
by hitower3
Dear denny,

Let me try go through the numbers:
With a OEW of 51.2t (I am surprised how light that plane is!) and a MTOW of 106,1t, the aircraft has 54,9t to share among payload and fuel.
Assuming 112 pax (typical 2-class) and 4t of cargo, we have about 15t of payload, leaving about 40t for fuel.
Assuming a fuel burn of 5,5t/h and a speed of 450kn over ground, a distance over ground of 3'000nm from London-Heathrow to New York Idlewild (it was to become JFK only later...), we are facing a flight time of 6h40min, resulting in a trip fuel of 36,67t. This leaves only 3,33t of reserves, which is too little.
Even by leaving behind any cargo, the reserve would increase to 7,33t, still on the low side.

Bottom line, the B720B would be barely suitable for this mission. While theoretically cabable to fly it at the edge of its payload-range envelope, El Al had more capable aircraft in the fleet, comfortably and economically managing this mission.

Best regards,
Hendric

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:31 am
by MoKa777
hitower3 wrote:
Dear denny,

Let me try go through the numbers:
With a OEW of 51.2t (I am surprised how light that plane is!) and a MTOW of 106,1t, the aircraft has 54,9t to share among payload and fuel.
Assuming 112 pax (typical 2-class) and 4t of cargo, we have about 15t of payload, leaving about 40t for fuel.
Assuming a fuel burn of 5,5t/h and a speed of 450kn over ground, a distance over ground of 3'000nm from London-Heathrow to New York Idlewild (it was to become JFK only later...), we are facing a flight time of 6h40min, resulting in a trip fuel of 36,67t. This leaves only 3,33t of reserves, which is too little.
Even by leaving behind any cargo, the reserve would increase to 7,33t, still on the low side.

Bottom line, the B720B would be barely suitable for this mission. While theoretically cabable to fly it at the edge of its payload-range envelope, El Al had more capable aircraft in the fleet, comfortably and economically managing this mission.

Best regards,
Hendric


This is a wonderful, informative post!

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:29 pm
by SheikhDjibouti
hitower3 wrote:
With a OEW of 51.2t (I am surprised how light that plane is!) and a MTOW of 106,1t, the aircraft has 54,9t to share among payload and fuel.
...
Bottom line, the B720B would be barely suitable for this mission. While theoretically cabable to fly it at the edge of its payload-range envelope, El Al had more capable aircraft in the fleet, comfortably and economically managing this mission.

Hendric


I usually opt for Wikipedia to help out, but then I come across some real gems that leave you wondering, like this one.
Wikipedia wrote:
In the late 1960s, 720 and 720B aircraft were used by the US military to shuttle troops to the Far-East war efforts. The interiors of these planes were stripped of class partitions. Some of these flights originated at Travis AFB California and flew nonstop to Japan.

Nonstop? If that's true, that's 4,500 nm.
I like Wikipedia, but on this occasion..... :scratchchin:

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:43 pm
by BravoOne
I ws at Pan Am during some of these MAC flights and no we did not fly non stop between Travis and Japan. Did ferry a 320C from Okinawa back to SFO once as I recall. Usually the flight went from Travis or Norton to ANC and then over. Only saw a B720B once Vietnam and everyone said, how dd that wind up here? Probably doing RR flights to HKG. The 707-320B/C was the mainstay for Pan Am's MAC operations.

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:40 pm
by B777LRF
In the 80s, Conair of Scandinavia flew the 720B between Copenhagen and Banjul, which is around 2900NM as the crow flies. 179 bums on seats, no cargo but loads of tax-free for onboard the sales.

The first flight of the season always attracted a fair amount of attention, as it would not only carry the pax both also the content of the entire office of the travel agency; everything from chairs to tables and all the stationary you can think of. Those flights used all of the runway and staggered to heaven on the ragged edge of the performance envelope. Wasn't unusual to stop in FAO in both directions for a top-up, but it was planned as a non-stop.

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:46 pm
by BravoOne
B777LRF wrote:
In the 80s, Conair of Scandinavia flew the 720B between Copenhagen and Banjul, which is around 2900NM as the crow flies. 179 bums on seats, no cargo but loads of tax-free for onboard the sales.

The first flight of the season always attracted a fair amount of attention, as it would not only carry the pax both also the content of the entire office of the travel agency; everything from chairs to tables and all the stationary you can think of. Those flights used all of the runway and staggered to heaven on the ragged edge of the performance envelope. Wasn't unusual to stop in FAO in both directions for a top-up, but it was planned as a non-stop.



Fortunately the 720B was as close to a rocket ship as any airliner of it time, Very good performance!

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:43 pm
by flyjay123
Monarch used 720B LGW - ANU back in the 1970's. Not sure the routing but I would assume at least one stop in Azores and another somewhere else along the way.

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:38 am
by Tango-Bravo
dennys wrote:
Hello Dears ,

On old ELAL timetables the two types B-707/B720Bs are mixed up . Nethertheless i see some flights making two stops on the way to NYC , such as TLV ZRH LON NYC . Can some of you confirm the LY 720B flew NYC ?

Many thanks for memories !

Cheers


With enroute tech stop(s) 720Bs could have done the route with ease. As for why the intermediate stop(s) in Europe westbound TLV-JFK, it was essentially a necessity, even for 707-320B/C and -420 types, due to payload/range limits. In El Al timetables at the time when 707s were state-of-the-art for longhaul, there were typically 1-3 eastbound flights per week shown as non-stop in addition to 1-2 stop flights via Europe. LY also had Fifth Freedom rights to/from some European points between TLV and JFK. Also of interest, in LY's summer 1966 timetable, three weekly non-stop JFK-TLV (eastbound) flights are shown, one (and only one) of which indicates "Technical Stop Europe." Could that have been a 720B-operated flight?

To confirm whether (or not) LY ever used 720Bs on TLV-JFK, an OAG from the time period in question is likely the only source that would differentiate between 707 and 720B equipment types.

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:18 pm
by iRISH251
flyjay123 wrote:
Monarch used 720B LGW - ANU back in the 1970's. Not sure the routing but I would assume at least one stop in Azores and another somewhere else along the way.


My recollection is that these (sometimes?) operated non-stop eastbound (the flight number OM502 sticks in my head) and I used to hear them on HF radio getting oceanic clearance. I would have to search out my old records from the time, though, to check on my recollection!

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:12 am
by flyjay123
I would be very surprised if the 720 went non stop. Sure your not getting mixed up with their A300, which often flew non stop from Florida west bound to UK.
MON is Monarch.

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:52 am
by mmo
flyjay123 wrote:
I would be very surprised if the 720 went non stop. Sure your not getting mixed up with their A300, which often flew non stop from Florida west bound to UK.
MON is Monarch.


I think you mean eastbound to the UK. Florida to Europe is eastbound, not westbound.

Re: Did EL AL 720Bs every fly NYC ?

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:24 pm
by iRISH251
flyjay123 wrote:
I would be very surprised if the 720 went non stop. Sure your not getting mixed up with their A300, which often flew non stop from Florida west bound to UK.
MON is Monarch.


I am talking here about the early 1980s when (a) Monarch did not have A300s and (b) there were no three-letter designators, only two-letter ones. Monarch's prefix was OM at that time. As I said, I will have to check my records.