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Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 4:44 am
by Max Q
Curious if they kept any 744 sims in operation after the aircraft’s retirement


Perhaps to train other operators or lease out ?

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 am
by 747classic
According the latest (05/01/2020) FAA Qualified Simulator list no UA 747-400 simulator is listed.

See : https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/nsp/data_lists/

And select the excel file "FAA Qualified Flight Simulation Training Devices"

Scroll down to United Airlines (Denver) - no 744 training devices present anymore.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 11:23 am
by 747classic
Browsing through above mentioned excel file, I noticed : Western Global Airlines has a (ex UA) 747-422 simulator, located at Miami.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:41 pm
by seven47
I did my 744 type rating training at UA back in '08, while working for another carrier. It was a nice facility and a great sim.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:54 pm
by KFTG
No. The last -400 full flight was sold over two years ago. A brand new 77W full flight is now in the bay it vacated.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 8:52 am
by Max Q
KFTG wrote:
No. The last -400 full flight was sold over two years ago. A brand new 77W full flight is now in the bay it vacated.



Can it be be used as a 200 sim as well ?

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 8:35 pm
by RetiredWeasel
Max Q wrote:
KFTG wrote:
No. The last -400 full flight was sold over two years ago. A brand new 77W full flight is now in the bay it vacated.



Can it be be used as a 200 sim as well ?

No. Completely different flight deck, emergency procedures and type rating.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 9:00 pm
by BravoOne
RetiredWeasel wrote:
Max Q wrote:
KFTG wrote:
No. The last -400 full flight was sold over two years ago. A brand new 77W full flight is now in the bay it vacated.



Can it be be used as a 200 sim as well ?

No. Completely different flight deck, emergency procedures and type rating.



That question confused me. Was it in reference to the 777-200, or maybe the 747-200? Weasel is correct regarding the 747 issue.

Boeing has a 747-400 sim that can be converted to a 747-8 in about 8 hours as I recall. The 777-300 can be used as -200F or a -200 with just a couple of config changes. Both of these sims are built by CAE.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 9:25 pm
by RetiredWeasel
BravoOne wrote:

That question confused me. Was it in reference to the 777-200, or maybe the 747-200? Weasel is correct regarding the 747 issue.

Boeing has a 747-400 sim that can be converted to a 747-8 in about 8 hours as I recall. The 777-300 can be used as -200F or a -200 with just a couple of config changes. Both of these sims are built by CAE.

Good point. I thought he was referring to the 747.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 10:13 pm
by KFTG
A 777 simulator is a 777 simulator. No blody -200, -300, or -F. They are modeled after specific tail numbers and certified as such but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter big picture.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 3:35 am
by BravoOne
KFTG wrote:
A 777 simulator is a 777 simulator. No blody -200, -300, or -F. They are modeled after specific tail numbers and certified as such but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter big picture.



That is an incorrect statement. You need to go back a review the differences between the various models before you spout off on something you apparently know little about.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 3:37 am
by KFTG
BravoOne wrote:
KFTG wrote:
A 777 simulator is a 777 simulator. No blody -200, -300, or -F. They are modeled after specific tail numbers and certified as such but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter big picture.



That is an incorrect statement. You need to go back a review the differences between the various models before you spout off on something you apparently know little about.

I know infinitely more about this topic than you do. Guaranteed.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 6:09 am
by Max Q
My question was whether a 777W sim can be reprogrammed to represent a -200 series

Pretty sure the cockpits are identical, gross weights are different and other minor differences exist but I don’t see why it would be an issue

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 9:10 am
by 747classic
Max Q wrote:
My question was whether a 777W sim can be reprogrammed to represent a -200 series

Pretty sure the cockpits are identical, gross weights are different and other minor differences exist but I don’t see why it would be an issue


Changes to the software are possible to simulate a 777-200(ER) in a 777-300(ER) designed simulator (or the other way around).
A lot of (777) simulators are equiped with several (switchable) software packages to simulate different aircraft and/or engine configurations to be loaded before each training session (when needed).
It's up to the airline to include a switchable data base or to purchase a (cheaper) dedicated simulator with only the data base of their "own" configuration installed.

Minor (hardware) lay-out differences may be acceptable by the training department of the airline involved and the relevant authorities (FAA and/or other CAA).

Note : Even on the old analoque aircraft large lay-out differences were accepted between aircraft and simulator.
Working with Martinair, after phase out of the KLM 747classic fleet and the removal of the KLM 747-200/300 simulators at AMS, we had to perform all our simulatar training , incl. checks at the Lufthansa 747-200 simulator in Frankfurt.
Large differences were acceptable, ATLAS - versus KSSU,: round dials- versus vertical tape, common cockpit versus split cockpit.
Differences were highlighted in the PF briefing and in a short differences course.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 10:02 am
by Max Q
Thanks for that information 74C

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:28 am
by andrej
747classic wrote:

Minor (hardware) lay-out differences may be acceptable by the training department of the airline involved and the relevant authorities (FAA and/or other CAA).


I can confirm that CX uses B744 sim, while it has only B744F in its fleet. Hardware differences include: no STAB fuel tank on B744F, different layout of fire, and pneumatic panels.
Was there ever produced dedicated B744F sim (with a proper layout)?

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 1:44 pm
by BravoOne
Max Q wrote:
My question was whether a 777W sim can be reprogrammed to represent a -200 series

Pretty sure the cockpits are identical, gross weights are different and other minor differences exist but I don’t see why it would be an issue


The answer is yes.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 1:47 pm
by BravoOne
andrej wrote:
747classic wrote:

Minor (hardware) lay-out differences may be acceptable by the training department of the airline involved and the relevant authorities (FAA and/or other CAA).


I can confirm that CX uses B744 sim, while it has only B744F in its fleet. Hardware differences include: no STAB fuel tank on B744F, different layout of fire, and pneumatic panels.
Was there ever produced dedicated B744F sim (with a proper layout)?



I suspect that the Cargolux sims are freighter versions, both for the -8 and -400F.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 1:50 pm
by BravoOne
KFTG wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
KFTG wrote:
A 777 simulator is a 777 simulator. No blody -200, -300, or -F. They are modeled after specific tail numbers and certified as such but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter big picture.



That is an incorrect statement. You need to go back a review the differences between the various models before you spout off on something you apparently know little about.

I know infinitely more about this topic than you do. Guaranteed.



Sounds like you may, but your comments are typical "sim theck"as opposed to pilot.


Good day mate:)

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:23 am
by andrej
BravoOne wrote:
I suspect that the Cargolux sims are freighter versions, both for the -8 and -400F.


That makes sense. Maybe some other long-term dedicated cargo operators, with own training facility, as well.
Thanks!

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:02 am
by 747classic
andrej wrote:
747classic wrote:

Minor (hardware) lay-out differences may be acceptable by the training department of the airline involved and the relevant authorities (FAA and/or other CAA).


I can confirm that CX uses B744 sim, while it has only B744F in its fleet. Hardware differences include: no STAB fuel tank on B744F, different layout of fire, and pneumatic panels.
Was there ever produced dedicated B744F sim (with a proper layout)?



One dedicated UPS 744F full flight simulator seems to be located at Louisville.

Interesting to see the 747 training facilities of UPS, located in Anchorage and Louisville with a fleet of 13x 744F, 15x 748F, 13 more 748F on order.

Two Level D, 744 Full flight simulators (one 744 and one 744F)
Plus two flight training devices (FTD's) for the 744F and two FTD's for the 748(F?), all level 4.
Note : FTD Level 4 - basic cockpit procedural trainer / often a touch screen procedural trainer
No 748F FFS is available !

B747-400, level D, FFS, FAA 1012, Anchorage
B747-400F, level 4, FAA 1174, Anchorage
B747-400F, level 4, FAA 1274, Louisville
B747-400F, level D, FFS, FAA 1608, Louisville
B747-8(F?), level 4, FAA 1571, Anchorage
B747-8(F?), level 4, FAA 1572, Louisville

See : https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/n ... _FSTD.xlsx

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:15 am
by 747classic
BravoOne wrote:


I suspect that the Cargolux sims are freighter versions, both for the -8 and -400F.


Cargolux 747-400 FFS

Image
Copyright Cargolux.

In February 2000, Cargolux introduced its own Boeing 747-400 full-flight simulator in Luxembourg, one of a few worldwide in freighter configuration.
In 2010 the visual was upgraded to the latest standard.

The simulator can be operated with different engine configurations, a change to the passenger variant is also possible.

The Cargolux B747-400 simulator has the following specifications:
◾Aircraft Type: B747-400
◾Engines: RR RB211-524H2, GE CF6-80C2B1F
◾Qualification Level: JAR STD-1A (Level D)
◾Motion System: CAE Series 600 (hydrostatic)
◾Visual System: CAE TROPOS 6000, 3 channels 200 x 40 deg field of view

747-8F FFS

Image
Copyright Cargolux.

In May 2012, Cargolux introduced its own Boeing 747-8 Freighter full-flight simulator at the training center in Luxembourg. It is the world's first full-flight simulator for this aircraft type.

The CAE 7000 series features state of the art electric motion system providing more accurate and authentic motion cues than the hydraulic system used on the company’s 747-400F FFS. The enhanced visual system generates a highly detailed synthetic visual environment to train pilots under the most difficult flight conditions.

The Cargolux B747-8 simulator has the following specifications:
◾Engines: GEnx-2B67
◾EASA FSTD Qualification Level: D
◾Motion System: CAE Electric Motion
◾Visual System: CAE TROPOS 6000 IG, 3 channels 210 x 40 deg field of view

See : https://www.cargolux.com/crew/flight-cr ... -equipment

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 2:05 pm
by BravoOne
Boeing used the Cargolux -8 sim for differences traning for Lufthansa as I recall. They, (Boeing) painted themselves into a corner in that they assumed that all -8 customers would be previous -400 operators and consequently there was no T-1, Initial Training) courseware available if this was going to be to a first time 747-8 crew with no previous -400 background. That was corrected as operators like UPS and Atlas started putting new hires in the -8.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 11:51 am
by andrej
747classic wrote:

One dedicated UPS 744F full flight simulator seems to be located at Louisville.

See : https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/n ... _FSTD.xlsx


Thank you, sir!
Looking through the file, its seems that there are 3 dedicated B744F Level D simulators in the US. UPS, Boeing, and Atlas Air.
Also interesting to note that there is one UAL B747-422 Level D sim. So that should be in line with UAL's setup (not only hardware, but also FMCs, FCCs and associated logic; like no FD if A/P is on the same FCC).

Looking at the Cargolux's website, their Fixed Base simulators (LCDs as a cockpit mock-up) have -400F setup.

Best!

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:10 pm
by 889091
747classic wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


I suspect that the Cargolux sims are freighter versions, both for the -8 and -400F.


Cargolux 747-400 FFS

Image
Copyright Cargolux.



Why are there so many jack stands in the background? In case the sim anchor points lose air/hydraulic pressure overnight?

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:21 pm
by BravoOne
889091 wrote:
747classic wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


I suspect that the Cargolux sims are freighter versions, both for the -8 and -400F.


Cargolux 747-400 FFS

Image
Copyright Cargolux.



Why are there so many jack stands in the background? In case the sim anchor points lose air/hydraulic pressure overnight?



They probably use them to support the sim when it is completely shutdown for actuator maintenance. I really have not noticed this before. The newest sims are electric as hydraulic seems to be going away. If one of the had lines break they could easily kill someone working close by. Boeing almost lost a sim tech a few years back.

Re: Does UA still own / operate a 744 simulator ?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 11:24 pm
by Starlionblue
889091 wrote:
747classic wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


I suspect that the Cargolux sims are freighter versions, both for the -8 and -400F.


Cargolux 747-400 FFS

Image
Copyright Cargolux.



Why are there so many jack stands in the background? In case the sim anchor points lose air/hydraulic pressure overnight?


Probably just stored there. You have to put them somewhere and there's plenty of space in the sim bay for them.

AFAIK, the hydraulics depressurise for ingress/egress every time. The box literally sinks to the bottom of the jack extension when the sim operator stops the motion function. Conversely, once the door is closed and everyone is seated, the sim operator will announce "motion coming on". The drawbridge then retracts and the box rises up on the jacks a fair distance.