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smithbs
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DC-10 Weights Over Time

Wed May 27, 2020 4:08 pm

Greetings;

I've been researching DC-10-30 weights and was curious if anyone could please fill in some blanks. Note, I'm specifically looking at DC-10-30 (not -20, -40, etc).

Looking at the DC-10 ACAP, the usual MTOW listed is 555,000 lbs. However, on the payload-range graph, there is a second line for 572,000 lbs, and a note on the graph mentions that it is paired with the CF6-50C1 engine (whereas the 555 klbs line is paired with the CF6-50C engine). I can't find anywhere else in the manual where it talks about the 572 klbs rating.

I was trying to find the date when the 572 klbs rating would have been available. If I assume it coincided with the CF6-50C1 engine, I have some spotty data that shows that engine was delivered in 1978 (line # 248 is the earliest line number I could find with that engine). Of course, it could easily be the case that earlier line numbers had that engine and/or weight rating that I'm unaware of.

We also know that in 1977, the KC-10 contract was signed and would seek a MTOW of 590 klbs. But I don't know if MDD already had this heavy capability in 1977 when they signed the contract, or if it was developed sometime between 1977 and first KC-10 delivery in 1981 (I bet it's the latter). Then we also know that DC-10-30ER was available in the early 1980s with about the same weight rating, probably using the KC-10's technology.

Would someone be able to shed some light on when exactly DC-10s could have carried weights beyond 555 klbs, yet before the final weight of 590 klbs was achieved?
 
pnut
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Thu May 28, 2020 12:04 pm

Great Post! I am also curious of these details. It sounds like you already know quite a bit about the old girl! Sorry for not contributing, but I hope that this post gets some good info!
"Illegitmi non carborundum"
 
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smithbs
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Thu May 28, 2020 5:23 pm

pnut wrote:
Great Post! I am also curious of these details. It sounds like you already know quite a bit about the old girl! Sorry for not contributing, but I hope that this post gets some good info!


Thanks. It's an obscure topic to try to find out what was going on at Long Beach in the mid/late 1970s. Hopefully we'll get some info.
 
MO11
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:00 pm

smithbs wrote:
pnut wrote:
Great Post! I am also curious of these details. It sounds like you already know quite a bit about the old girl! Sorry for not contributing, but I hope that this post gets some good info!


Thanks. It's an obscure topic to try to find out what was going on at Long Beach in the mid/late 1970s. Hopefully we'll get some info.


https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/2cf3306625f6fd1586258281006f6d29/$FILE/A22WE_Rev_13.pdf

Go to page 12.
 
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smithbs
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:39 pm

MO11 wrote:
smithbs wrote:
pnut wrote:
Great Post! I am also curious of these details. It sounds like you already know quite a bit about the old girl! Sorry for not contributing, but I hope that this post gets some good info!


Thanks. It's an obscure topic to try to find out what was going on at Long Beach in the mid/late 1970s. Hopefully we'll get some info.


https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/2cf3306625f6fd1586258281006f6d29/$FILE/A22WE_Rev_13.pdf

Go to page 12.


Hooray, you won the prize! (As soon as I think of what it is...). Thank you very much. And it's also a reminder for me - should have checked the FAA cert. I did that before with 742s - should have remembered.

Thanks again!
 
Max Q
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:46 am

Always wondered if the KC10 was / is authorized to a higher ‘ in flight weight only’

For example, taking off with a combination cargo and fuel load them receiving fuel from another tanker taking them over normal MGTOW
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
mmo
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:01 am

Max Q wrote:
Always wondered if the KC10 was / is authorized to a higher ‘ in flight weight only’



If it is not on the data TCDS, it's not authorized. Very simple.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
strfyr51
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:05 pm

Max Q wrote:
Always wondered if the KC10 was / is authorized to a higher ‘ in flight weight only’

For example, taking off with a combination cargo and fuel load them receiving fuel from another tanker taking them over normal MGTOW


since refueling is done in the air? How then would you exceed the max gross takeoff weight? Especially since takeoff is from the ground? All you could exceed?
Is the wing loading weight which is pretty hard to exceed. During certification? I think the DC10-30 took off with close to 700K MGWT. . At United we had the 2 weight version -30's, One was the 555K mgwt and the reset were 572K MGWT. the 555K airplane came from Pan AM via National airlines. the 572K airplanes came from CPAir and a few former Laker airplanes as well, we did have to standardize the Engines as they were all CF6-50's but different versions so we brought them all up to the same standard the same way we brought he JT9D'd all up to -7A power from the -3.
 
Max Q
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:14 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Always wondered if the KC10 was / is authorized to a higher ‘ in flight weight only’

For example, taking off with a combination cargo and fuel load them receiving fuel from another tanker taking them over normal MGTOW


since refueling is done in the air? How then would you exceed the max gross takeoff weight? Especially since takeoff is from the ground? All you could exceed?
Is the wing loading weight which is pretty hard to exceed. During certification? I think the DC10-30 took off with close to 700K MGWT. . At United we had the 2 weight version -30's, One was the 555K mgwt and the reset were 572K MGWT. the 555K airplane came from Pan AM via National airlines. the 572K airplanes came from CPAir and a few former Laker airplanes as well, we did have to standardize the Engines as they were all CF6-50's but different versions so we brought them all up to the same standard the same way we brought he JT9D'd all up to -7A power from the -3.



I believe the KC10 has a 590k MGTOW, my question was whether the AF ever deliberately exceeds this in flight by taking off with cargo, for example, then refueling in flight


Theoretically this would not be exceeding max take off weight, correct, just pondering if they may have a ‘Max in flight weight’


Was there a higher than 572k option available for civil aircraft ?

I thought I had seen a 580k option at one point


Best wishes
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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smithbs
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:36 am

Max Q wrote:
Was there a higher than 572k option available for civil aircraft ?


I think some pax DC-10s topped out at 590k in the early 1980s (or at best late 1970s), probably using the KC-10 technology once it was figured out.
 
B-HOP
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:12 am

May I also tagged on this post and ask about the useful payload for DC10-30F, with range for about 8 hours, can it get up to 70,000kg?
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smithbs
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:33 pm

B-HOP wrote:
May I also tagged on this post and ask about the useful payload for DC10-30F, with range for about 8 hours, can it get up to 70,000kg?


If better materials aren't available, I used the airport planning characteristics document (ACAP). It includes a ton of info and payload-range graphs for representative models.

Boeing currently holds the DC-10 ACAP document, and is easily found and downloaded. You'll have to calculate how far a DC-10 flies in 8 hours yourself, and here you could account for headwinds or tailwinds if you are thinking about a specific routing. With your distance and desired payload, put those numbers into the payload range graph and see where it falls.
 
Transpac787
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:29 am

Max Q wrote:
Was there a higher than 572k option available for civil aircraft ?

I thought I had seen a 580k option at one point


Northwest had several IGW DC10's. They had quite the unique fleet; both their Dash-40's, and the later-acquired Dash-30's from the used market.

Their Dash-40's had two main variants within the fleet. 530.0 MGTOW, with JT9D-20 motors. They also had some with 550.0 MGTOW, with JT9D-20J motors. I'd have to dig into the old fleet registers to see which exact ships those were, but they're pretty easy to tell as they're the only Northwest DC10-40's regularly seen in photos in Europe. As for the Dash-30's, they had 4 different weights:

565.0 (x10)
211, 220-221, 223-225, 227-230

572.0 (x5)
232-236

580.0 (x4)
226, 237, 241-242

590.0 (x5)
238-240, 243-244


Those ships weighing 590.0 were among the last DC10's built, being delivered in 1987-1988 to Thai and JAS.

B-HOP wrote:
May I also tagged on this post and ask about the useful payload for DC10-30F, with range for about 8 hours, can it get up to 70,000kg?


At 70,000kg (the design's max payload), an IGW DC10-30F has a still-air range of about 3500nm (6500km). Take 5-7 percent off that for a particularly rough estimate to account for unfavorable or westbound winds aloft, and that'd be your answer.
 
Transpac787
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:45 am

strfyr51 wrote:
At United we had the 2 weight version -30's, One was the 555K mgwt and the reset were 572K MGWT. the 555K airplane came from Pan AM via National airlines. the 572K airplanes came from CPAir and a few former Laker airplanes as well


United actually had 3 weight variants:

555.0 (x1) (ex-PanAm)
1855

572.0 (x4) (ex-World)
1856-1859

580.0 (x3) (ex-Laker)
1852-1854

It's possible those 580.0 ships had their weights reduced at some point. Or, conversely, their weights may have been increased up to 580.0 at some point. But, the above weight info is taken right out of United's Aircraft Reference Guide, dated May 1994.
 
tnair1974
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:21 pm

Perhaps a little offtopic, but it seems I vaguely recall reading that SN (Sabena) put extra fuel tanks in the tail area of at least some of their DC-10-30s. A quick dirty search did not find this. Confirmation? As robust and versatile as the DC-10 is from a structural viewpoint, maybe I'm was dreaming? :spin:
 
AC320tech
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:30 am

Transpac787 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
At United we had the 2 weight version -30's, One was the 555K mgwt and the reset were 572K MGWT. the 555K airplane came from Pan AM via National airlines. the 572K airplanes came from CPAir and a few former Laker airplanes as well


United actually had 3 weight variants:


The DC-10s from CP were the -30ER versions, right? Did they have the 580K MTOW?
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: DC-10 Weights Over Time

Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:36 pm

AC320tech wrote:
The DC-10s from CP were the -30ER versions, right? Did they have the 580K MTOW?


The -30ERs were 590K MTOW, with 593K max ramp weight.

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