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Slamdunkin
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Landing wind direction

Wed May 27, 2020 9:43 pm

I know most times planes land into the wind. Several times in the last week I have seen the landings at ORD with the wind. The winds were only 10-12 mph, but at what point does this become an issue?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu May 28, 2020 12:32 am

Every aircraft has a maximum tailwind limit for landing, typically 10-15 knots, beyond which landing is not permitted. Same with takeoffs.

Tailwinds also increase landing distance, and this has to be factored into the landing performance assessment.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bigb
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu May 28, 2020 2:37 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Every aircraft has a maximum tailwind limit for landing, typically 10-15 knots, beyond which landing is not permitted. Same with takeoffs.

Tailwinds also increase landing distance, and this has to be factored into the landing performance assessment.


This right here is spot on.

Also, I would like to add the fact that if there is a more desirable approach i.e. one end of the runway has an ILS and I need it or obstacle-free. As long as I have the landing data and some safety margin. I would considered landing with a reasonable tail-wind.
 
e38
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu May 28, 2020 5:12 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply # 2), “Every aircraft has a maximum tailwind limit . . . “

Also, sometimes the limits specified by the aircraft manufacturer are further restricted by company operating procedures, and occasionally specific airports and/or runways may have more restrictive limits.

e38
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu May 28, 2020 11:21 pm

I'll add that a more restrictive limit may be in place for high altitude airports, and there may be a specific limit for autoland.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Slamdunkin
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Re: Landing wind direction

Fri May 29, 2020 1:19 am

Thanks for the answers. As I read through this forum I am amazed at the sheer volume of expertise here, thanks for sharing.
 
rfields5421
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Re: Landing wind direction

Fri May 29, 2020 12:06 pm

One point to remember about large airports/ busy airspace.

Traffic patterns do not make 'turning' the airport for relatively light wind changes easy. Tailwind landings and takeoffs happen often due to the overall needs of maintain traffic flow. In many airspaces such as Dallas/ Fort Worth, turning DFW due to changes in winds also involves changing the landing/ takeoff patterns for DAL and almost a dozen GA airports.

Some airports such as Heathrow and Gatwick have landing / takeoff directions mandated by agreements on noise abatement and other rules.

Relatively light wind directions do not always override other considerations for landing/ takeoff directions.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Yikes!
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Re: Landing wind direction

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:35 am

Another consideration, given some aircraft that have a 20 knot tailwind for landing, is tire speed. Most heavy jets have tire maximum speed in excess of 230 kts ground speed.

Where "on time performance" is so important, and a tailwind landing can accomplish this, the tailwind landing is another tool in the pilot's set of choices.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Landing wind direction

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:49 am

Yikes! wrote:
Another consideration, given some aircraft that have a 20 knot tailwind for landing, is tire speed. Most heavy jets have tire maximum speed in excess of 230 kts ground speed.

Where "on time performance" is so important, and a tailwind landing can accomplish this, the tailwind landing is another tool in the pilot's set of choices.


230 kt seems quite high. A330 and A350 have a tire limit below 210 kt.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Landing wind direction

Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:07 am

As a previous poster said, airlines may impose the limitations. The four different airplanes I flew over 17 years were all limited to 10kts tailwind component for TO or landing. I always assumed that that was true for the rest of the fleet also. This may have been done for standardization as I'm sure Boeing's limits or MD limits were probably higher.
 
LH707330
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Re: Landing wind direction

Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:37 am

Yikes! wrote:
Another consideration, given some aircraft that have a 20 knot tailwind for landing, is tire speed. Most heavy jets have tire maximum speed in excess of 230 kts ground speed.

Where "on time performance" is so important, and a tailwind landing can accomplish this, the tailwind landing is another tool in the pilot's set of choices.

The tire speed limits shouldn't come into play on landing. Most jetliners land below 150 kt, so you'd need a honking tailwind to get to the tire limits. At that point you'd overrun the runway before your tires go....

Regarding making up time, flying the pattern typically costs 5 minutes or so, and most busy airports are towered and won't allow a wrong-way landing for some crew who's running late, so it's not worth the safety issues.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Landing wind direction

Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:19 am

LH707330 wrote:
Yikes! wrote:
Another consideration, given some aircraft that have a 20 knot tailwind for landing, is tire speed. Most heavy jets have tire maximum speed in excess of 230 kts ground speed.

Where "on time performance" is so important, and a tailwind landing can accomplish this, the tailwind landing is another tool in the pilot's set of choices.

The tire speed limits shouldn't come into play on landing. Most jetliners land below 150 kt, so you'd need a honking tailwind to get to the tire limits. At that point you'd overrun the runway before your tires go....

Regarding making up time, flying the pattern typically costs 5 minutes or so, and most busy airports are towered and won't allow a wrong-way landing for some crew who's running late, so it's not worth the safety issues.


Tailwind landings aren't really for hurrying things up.

Noise abatement is a common reason, as in having traffic flow in a certain direction is preferable.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Landing wind direction

Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:36 pm

Yikes! wrote:
Another consideration, given some aircraft that have a 20 knot tailwind for landing, is tire speed. Most heavy jets have tire maximum speed in excess of 230 kts ground speed.

Where "on time performance" is so important, and a tailwind landing can accomplish this, the tailwind landing is another tool in the pilot's set of choices.



Most large/heavy jets do NOT have tires rated to 230 knots or higher.
Whatever
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Landing wind direction

Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:56 pm

Not a prudent decision considering extra wear on brakes, tires & engines.
 
StereoTechque
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:50 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:


Most large/heavy jets do NOT have tires rated to 230 knots or higher.


A320 tires for eg. are rated for max speed of 195 knots. (Im referring Michelin & Goodrich)
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CosmicCruiser
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:54 am

Best I remember the -11 was 208. In a no flap/ no slat ldg you were really pushing it.
 
musang
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:42 pm

I no longer have data to look up but unless I'm losing my marbles, it was often surprising that whilst a (for example) 10 kt headwind reduced landing distance by (say) 10%, a 10 kt tailwind seemed to increase it by rather more than 10%.

Don't quote me, the illustrative figs are off the top of my head. I recall becoming aware of this at one particular airport where we landed on r'way 24 99% of the time, same type, similar load, similar wind, and knew how much effort it was going to take to make the exit. One day we landed with a tailwind, same conditions, accurate speed and touchdown point, and couldn't comfortably make the exit, by quite a distance. It took us both by surprise.

That sound reasonable?

On that fleet, specific landing distances weren't calculated, simply a yes you can/no you can't answer based on the day's conditions.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:23 pm

Yes, energy is a square function of velocity and the velocity here is ground speed. The tailwind adds lots of energy.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:47 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
As a previous poster said, airlines may impose the limitations. The four different airplanes I flew over 17 years were all limited to 10kts tailwind component for TO or landing. I always assumed that that was true for the rest of the fleet also. This may have been done for standardization as I'm sure Boeing's limits or MD limits were probably higher.



Boeings standard 10kt tailwind limitation can be increased to 15kts with paperwork and $$. I forget but I thought that 15 was standard on the 787 series. Looked it up in the Buyers Catalog and it shows that 15 is a standard no cost option for both takeoff and landing.
 
 
mmo
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:25 pm

BravoOne wrote:


Boeings standard 10kt tailwind limitation can be increased to 15kts with paperwork and $$. I forget but I thought that 15 was standard on the 787 series. Looked it up in the Buyers Catalog and it shows that 15 is a standard no cost option for both takeoff and landing.


But it wouldn't be unusual to have an operator have the HW/TW restricted to 10 knots for standardization across the fleets. When I flew the 787, the carrier I worked for had a 10-knot restriction.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:36 pm

mmo wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


Boeings standard 10kt tailwind limitation can be increased to 15kts with paperwork and $$. I forget but I thought that 15 was standard on the 787 series. Looked it up in the Buyers Catalog and it shows that 15 is a standard no cost option for both takeoff and landing.


But it wouldn't be unusual to have an operator have the HW/TW restricted to 10 knots for standardization across the fleets. When I flew the 787, the carrier I worked for had a 10-knot restriction.


Sounds ususual to me but whatever works for them.
 
mmo
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:20 pm

Actually, it is quite for an airline to be more restrictive than the manufacturer. Airlines will change the flows to keep standardization across the fleets and change callouts and responses to better harmonize the fleets. All the operator has to do is get a "no technical objection" letter from the manufacturer. There is nothing unusual at all.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Landing wind direction

Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:47 pm

mmo wrote:
Actually, it is quite for an airline to be more restrictive than the manufacturer. Airlines will change the flows to keep standardization across the fleets and change callouts and responses to better harmonize the fleets. All the operator has to do is get a "no technical objection" letter from the manufacturer. There is nothing unusual at all.



Complete;y agree as when my airline to deliver of the MD11 we were still operating 727, 757/767/and the L1011 plus a lot of MD88.. We had monthly Standards meeting to discuss operational issues and frequently we were beaten around the head as we defended the latest operational procedures that were available to the MD11 crews. Same thing happened again when we brought the 777 into service. These meetings were not for the faint of heart so you had to bring your biggest knife to the fight!

I doubt that restricting a TW to 10 vs. 15 would even require an NTO.
 
mmo
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Re: Landing wind direction

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:34 am

BravoOne wrote:

I doubt that restricting a TW to 10 vs. 15 would even require an NTO.


You would be surprised what lawyers want. For example, the 747-400 Boeing SOP had the flight controls checked in the chocks after engine start. Not to throw stones at Boeing, I don' t know of any carrier who does that on any aircraft. But there was an NTO requirement to change it from the After Start checklist to the Taxi checklist. Lawyers on both sides want to make sure there is no liability at all. CYA!!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Landing wind direction

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:48 pm

mmo wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

I doubt that restricting a TW to 10 vs. 15 would even require an NTO.


You would be surprised what lawyers want. For example, the 747-400 Boeing SOP had the flight controls checked in the chocks after engine start. Not to throw stones at Boeing, I don' t know of any carrier who does that on any aircraft. But there was an NTO requirement to change it from the After Start checklist to the Taxi checklist. Lawyers on both sides want to make sure there is no liability at all. CYA!!




Very familiar with that control check issue and have never seen any attorneys inject themselves into the procedure. Not only Boeing, but MD and Lockheed as well going back as far as the 707/727. I'm sure you recall "Uppers & Lowers" on the aircraft.
 
mmo
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Re: Landing wind direction

Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:52 pm

We were the launch customer for the 400 and trying to get things done was very difficult sometimes because Boeing, like Airbus thinks their way is the only way to go. We had lawyers all over things.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Landing wind direction

Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:57 pm

mmo wrote:
We were the launch customer for the 400 and trying to get things done was very difficult sometimes because Boeing, like Airbus thinks their way is the only way to go. We had lawyers all over things.



Well how did you do it in the -200? Before wave off or during taxi? Agree with your Boeing statement.
 
mmo
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Re: Landing wind direction

Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:14 pm

In the 200 and 400, it was done during the taxi out when clear of the ramp area.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!

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