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sho69607
Topic Author
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 am

747-400 climb performance when empty

Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:44 pm

I was wondering what kind of climb performance a 747-400 has when empty or very lightly loaded. 5000-6000fpm initially? If the altitude assigned by ATC isn't too low and there are no passengers aboard, is it still the standard to use CLB2 all the way up to cruise altitude?
 
spudsmac
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:36 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:31 pm

The climb power transitions to full power climb around 15,000ft so it doesn't matter after that point. Usually the aircraft is just left in CLB-2 unless you just want to climb faster to get above 10k or because ATC requests an expedited climb.

As for the performance, I don't remember but it can be pretty impressive especially down low on a cool day.
 
mmo
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:34 pm

No matter what climb derate you have passing 10,000' the FMS starts to "blend" in full climb thrust. I can't remember just what the factor is but passing FL200 you are in full CLB. The rationale is you save fuel if you get up to cruise altitude quicker and full climb thrust doesn't add much stress to the engine. I have flown an empty F which has a ZFW of about 161 Tons and it would do about 4500 fpm. Once you switch over to .85 MN for the climb you will also get another bump in IVSI.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
sho69607
Topic Author
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 am

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:19 am

Well the 747 must be right up there with the MD11 when it comes to climbing quickly (at least when empty). I have heard those birds can do 6000+ FPM on initial climb out!
 
mmo
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:30 am

sho69607 wrote:
Well the 747 must be right up there with the MD11 when it comes to climbing quickly (at least when empty). I have heard those birds can do 6000+ FPM on initial climb out!


I don't know where you heard it from but it won't.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
sho69607
Topic Author
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 am

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:46 am

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FDX ... M/tracklog

Of course this is assuming the information from Flightaware is correct.
 
gloom
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:51 am

All WB going empty will have an enormous climb possibility. I'd expect most of them being able to reach over 6kfpm, and going all the way to max certified alt within 15 minutes.

There used to be a release from JustPlanes or similar, where 767 on regional route (pax, around 1hr trip) went to F410 within 15minutes, while having 6+k fpm initial.
Weight does make a difference.

Cheers,
Adam
 
mmo
Posts: 2014
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:55 am

sho69607 wrote:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FDX1607/history/20200611/0431Z/KIND/KMEM/tracklog

Of course this is assuming the information from Flightaware is correct.


Of course, you can always trade airspeed for altitude and get over 6,000 fpm. But if you maintain a standard climb profile, you will not see 6,000 fpm. As I said earlier, about 4,500 fpm on an empty freighter is not uncommon. A pax 400 is about 20 tons heavier and will run out of steam sooner.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:33 pm

gloom wrote:
All WB going empty will have an enormous climb possibility. I'd expect most of them being able to reach over 6kfpm, and going all the way to max certified alt within 15 minutes.

There used to be a release from JustPlanes or similar, where 767 on regional route (pax, around 1hr trip) went to F410 within 15minutes, while having 6+k fpm initial.
Weight does make a difference.

Cheers,
Adam

I saw the DL 77L from ORD-ATL doing the cargo or ferry route, and it got 5700fpm pretty quick. A 767 acts like a 75 on steroids when empty..
 
744SPX
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:29 pm

An empty Qantas 747SP would have a killer rate of climb with the SP's already insanely low wing loading and those 53k lb thrust Rollers... Pratt routinely flies their SP at FL470 for testing bizjet engines.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8171
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:32 pm

Our 767-224’s at Continental were phenomenal performers, we had the most powerful engines available, they would easily outclimb our 752 aircraft
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
seven47
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:17 am

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:41 pm

mmo wrote:
sho69607 wrote:
Well the 747 must be right up there with the MD11 when it comes to climbing quickly (at least when empty). I have heard those birds can do 6000+ FPM on initial climb out!


I don't know where you heard it from but it won't.


I flew 747s (-100Fs,-200Fs, and -400Fs) for 12 years, and I've absolutely seen 6000FPM+ on many occasions with lightly loaded jets! I shot a video (from the jumpseat) of a takeoff from an ORD to EWR ferry flight in a -400 that shows the IVSI pegged above 6k. It's been a few years since I've flown the -400, but I believe the actual rate of climb is digitally displayed above the IVSI pointer, which the video should show.

I'll have to dig up the video from one of my old computers, and I'd be happy to share it.
 
sho69607
Topic Author
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 am

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:19 am

seven47 wrote:
mmo wrote:
sho69607 wrote:
Well the 747 must be right up there with the MD11 when it comes to climbing quickly (at least when empty). I have heard those birds can do 6000+ FPM on initial climb out!


I don't know where you heard it from but it won't.


I flew 747s (-100Fs,-200Fs, and -400Fs) for 12 years, and I've absolutely seen 6000FPM+ on many occasions with lightly loaded jets! I shot a video (from the jumpseat) of a takeoff from an ORD to EWR ferry flight in a -400 that shows the IVSI pegged above 6k. It's been a few years since I've flown the -400, but I believe the actual rate of climb is digitally displayed above the IVSI pointer, which the video should show.

I'll have to dig up the video from one of my old computers, and I'd be happy to share it.


If you manage to find it that would be cool to see!
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 382
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:30 pm

The -400 is described by pilots as "powerful," I guess meaning it is more capable than most WB, particularly earlier 747 models.

But, logically speaking, I would think twinjets can outclimb quads because they have 200% of needed thrust at MTOW, versus 133% on a quad... non pilot
 
Kent350787
Posts: 1240
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:35 am

QF used to have a 744 positioning flight from SYD to AVV daily, around 50 mins flight time. It was an absolute rocketship on takeoff over my house.

QR A35K SYD-CBR (around 30 mins flight time) is 10-20% load, but still a great climb out :)
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
cpd
Posts: 6299
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: 747-400 climb performance when empty

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:46 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
QF used to have a 744 positioning flight from SYD to AVV daily, around 50 mins flight time. It was an absolute rocketship on takeoff over my house.

QR A35K SYD-CBR (around 30 mins flight time) is 10-20% load, but still a great climb out :)


The United flight Sydney to Melbourne with their -422 was also very high by the time it got over my house. Also seen Qantas -400s go up like rockets on positioning flights.

The United wasn’t empty but it sure climbed fast, maybe not empty Concorde performance but still very quick.

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