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southbound35
Topic Author
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:48 pm

Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:21 pm

Does anyone know what level of cubic foot capacity the airlines can squeeze on the top deck of a 773 that has had the seats removed? And how does that compare to a 777F?

Also, is there any update/insight on LH's A380 conversion?

Thanks in advance for your insight.
 
mmo
Posts: 2021
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Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:32 pm

Just so you are aware, the biggest issue on the semi-freighter mod would be the floor loading. The floor loading is not quite as robust as you might think. On the 747 Pax to Freight one of the biggest issues are the floor loading limitations. Volumetric capacity is close to a pure F but the floor loading is significantly less in spots.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Horstroad
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Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:28 pm

mmo wrote:
Volumetric capacity is close to a pure F

I doubt that. Isles have to remain open, overhead bins still installed, galleys and lavatories still installed. I would say 1/4 to 1/3.

Image
 
mmo
Posts: 2021
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Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:56 pm

Horstroad wrote:
mmo wrote:
Volumetric capacity is close to a pure F

I doubt that. Isles have to remain open, overhead bins still installed, galleys and lavatories still installed. I would say 1/4 to 1/3.



You might want to go back and reread my post. The reference was to a 400 converted to a 400 freighter!!! The sentence before the one you copied was referencing the pax to F conversion. Funny how you didn't include that one too????
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Horstroad
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Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:58 pm

mmo wrote:
Funny how you didn't include that one too????

The original question was not about a converted P2F but about pax aircraft used as freighters with the seats removed.
 
mmo
Posts: 2021
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Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:45 am

Horstroad wrote:
mmo wrote:
Funny how you didn't include that one too????

The original question was not about a converted P2F but about pax aircraft used as freighters with the seats removed.


Granted but you answered my post which was about the P2F conversion and in doing so you didn't read the entire post I had written. By doing so you made it appear I gave a "wrong" (to you) answer. When, in reality, it was you who didn't read the answer and jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

My point was to make sure he realized he was comparing apples to oranges as the floor loading is an issue when it comes to using Pax aircraft as freighters. As an illustration, I used the 747 P2F as there is no current 77W in a true P2F mod.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Horstroad
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Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:50 am

I misunderstood your answer then. I took it that you referred to the 747 P2F as an example that the floor loading is more relevant than volume but that your last sentence was an answer to the original question.
 
southbound35
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Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:48 pm

Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:24 pm

I understand the constraints created by the floor. Also, I am specifically asking about the temporary freighter conversions that assume aisles are clear, overhead bins are still installed, the bulkheads, kitchens, lavs still exist, no large cargo door, etc.

    - In production 777-300ER SF mod gets you total volumetric payload of ~29,000 ft3
    - Factory 777F has ~23,000 ft3
    - What is a reasonable ft3 assumption for the 'no seat' temporary 77W freighter?
 
trex8
Posts: 5542
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:49 am

Airbus' A350/A330 conversion provides for the A350 30 PKC pallets on main deck, assume stacked 5 feet high like underfloor pallets gives you @107cf per pallet along with 11 98 x 125in lower deck pallets (417cf /pallet, 11 pallets/plane) gives you a total of 7800cf
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 61.article

The 77w carries underfloor 14 pallets (417 x 14= 5840cf) . AC had this showing only 969 lb capacity for each position in the center row of the cabin positions, It also seems the positions on the outside are narrower than the center ones.
Also different airlines may use up different portions of the 3 main pax cabins and probably not the one between doors 1 and 2. They do need seats for the FA who are the "fire marshalls" on these flights and taking out J seats is a muhc bigger deal than PE/Y seats.
https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... lery.html##[email protected]
https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... lery.html##[email protected]
assuming a 77W operator does something equivalent to the Airbus PKC pallet footprint, assume a 77W has 40 positions, then you have 4280cf on main deck, total 10120cf
 
southbound35
Topic Author
Posts: 26
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Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:53 pm

trex8 wrote:
Airbus' A350/A330 conversion provides for the A350 30 PKC pallets on main deck, assume stacked 5 feet high like underfloor pallets gives you @107cf per pallet along with 11 98 x 125in lower deck pallets (417cf /pallet, 11 pallets/plane) gives you a total of 7800cf
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 61.article

The 77w carries underfloor 14 pallets (417 x 14= 5840cf) . AC had this showing only 969 lb capacity for each position in the center row of the cabin positions, It also seems the positions on the outside are narrower than the center ones.
Also different airlines may use up different portions of the 3 main pax cabins and probably not the one between doors 1 and 2. They do need seats for the FA who are the "fire marshalls" on these flights and taking out J seats is a muhc bigger deal than PE/Y seats.
https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... lery.html##[email protected]
https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... lery.html##[email protected]
assuming a 77W operator does something equivalent to the Airbus PKC pallet footprint, assume a 77W has 40 positions, then you have 4280cf on main deck, total 10120cf



Thank you. Great catch on that 3rd pic. If you assume LD3s in the lower deck you add another 1000cf or so, right?
 
trex8
Posts: 5542
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:31 pm

southbound35 wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Airbus' A350/A330 conversion provides for the A350 30 PKC pallets on main deck, assume stacked 5 feet high like underfloor pallets gives you @107cf per pallet along with 11 98 x 125in lower deck pallets (417cf /pallet, 11 pallets/plane) gives you a total of 7800cf
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 61.article

The 77w carries underfloor 14 pallets (417 x 14= 5840cf) . AC had this showing only 969 lb capacity for each position in the center row of the cabin positions, It also seems the positions on the outside are narrower than the center ones.
Also different airlines may use up different portions of the 3 main pax cabins and probably not the one between doors 1 and 2. They do need seats for the FA who are the "fire marshalls" on these flights and taking out J seats is a muhc bigger deal than PE/Y seats.
https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... lery.html##[email protected]
https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... lery.html##[email protected]
assuming a 77W operator does something equivalent to the Airbus PKC pallet footprint, assume a 77W has 40 positions, then you have 4280cf on main deck, total 10120cf



Thank you. Great catch on that 3rd pic. If you assume LD3s in the lower deck you add another 1000cf or so, right?

44 LD3 in a 77W at 150 cf gets you to 6600cf, (vs the 5800 for 14 98in pallets) so close to 1000cf .But given the shape of the LD3 its not all usable, which is why most cargo carriers use pallets for cargo and LD3s for bags.
 
Vimanav
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Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:19 pm

Emirates claimed that they carried 66 tons of cargo recently on BOM-DXB on 77W (pure cargo ops) using only belly capacity. I am not sure this figure is correct even though it got reported in the press. I read somewhere the maximum structural weight that can be carried in the belly is about 52 tons.

Any thoughts?

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
trex8
Posts: 5542
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Volumetric capacity of passenger freighters

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:51 pm

Vimanav wrote:
Emirates claimed that they carried 66 tons of cargo recently on BOM-DXB on 77W (pure cargo ops) using only belly capacity. I am not sure this figure is correct even though it got reported in the press. I read somewhere the maximum structural weight that can be carried in the belly is about 52 tons.

Any thoughts?

rgds//Vimanav

Swiss claims cargo (underfloor) payload max only 24500Kg
https://www.swiss.com/CMSContent/web/Si ... 0ER_EN.pdf

AirIndia claims 21.6-25 tons
http://www.airindia.in/b777-300er.htm

Boeing acaps total structural payload is only 70,000lbs pg14
https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... 2lr3er.pdf

Maybe EK report meant 66000lbs

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