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Slamdunkin
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Pilot deviations

Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:05 am

I am not a pilot but am fascinated by aviation. Several times while watching Flightradar24 and listening to LiveATC I have heard a controller advise the pilot to take down a phone number to call for a possible pilot deviation. I think I understand what is happening but am curious what happens from there. Is there just a phone conversation to discuss the situation, or is it the beginning of a larger investigation?

Also, is there a procedure for pilots to bring possible errors by controllers to someones attention?
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Pilot deviations

Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:30 am

Slamdunkin wrote:
Also, is there a procedure for pilots to bring possible errors by controllers to someones attention?

Yes. Have a look here at a scenario I posted two years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1393879

Basically New York Approach was having planes doing 210 knots until they got to the outer marker. FedEx 1483 didn't like that, so they asked for a slower speed, and New York Approach refused. Eventually they were handed off to Kennedy Tower, who asked them to slow down, to which they told tower they were trying. Once they landed, they asked the tower for the phone number to New York Approach, controller gave it to them.
Captain Kevin
 
spacecadet
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Re: Pilot deviations

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:00 am

Slamdunkin wrote:
Is there just a phone conversation to discuss the situation, or is it the beginning of a larger investigation?


I've never had it happen to me but I know people who have. The short answer is that it depends on what the deviation was. Some deviations are rule violations that ultimately don't really impact safety; the equivalent of leaving your blinker on too long on the highway. In that case it might just be a phone conversation to educate you and you'll never hear any more about it. The penalties go up from there. If it's bad enough, the entire phone conversation may be to just let you know that you'll be receiving a letter from the FAA. That letter will demand a written explanation for what happened. If the FAA is not satisfied with your answer, you could have one or more of your certifications suspended or revoked.

From what I've been told, it's a good idea to answer that letter through a lawyer rather than by yourself. At that point, it is a legal proceeding and as in other legal proceedings, anything you say can and will be used against you.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Pilot deviations

Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:11 am

There is a phone conversation. This is a bit less formal than a written report, so can be used to has things out if things weren't so serious.


If anyone feels that safety was compromised, they can file an Air Safety Report (or equivalent name in various jurisdictions). This is not only for ATC occurrences. It can be for something that you did yourself, equipment failure or whatever.

There is a list of "mandatory reporting occurrences". If any of these happen, you must file an air safety report.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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zeke
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Re: Pilot deviations

Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:00 am

Slamdunkin wrote:
Is there just a phone conversation to discuss the situation, or is it the beginning of a larger investigation?

Also, is there a procedure for pilots to bring possible errors by controllers to someones attention?


The phone call is normally with the either the tower or radar supervisor, they are in different locations. Most of the time it is to educate, sometimes its to find out more information that is not needed over the radio. I have had requests a few times to call, normally for go-arounds and its either them apologizing for crap vectors or to understand why you went around.

I have heard other asked to call them when they crew failed to follow a taxi instruction, speed instruction, runway exit.

As for advising controller "errors", if its minor I will do the opposite, I will call the supervisor and have a chat after shutting down, they have a different perspective that I dont see, significant ones I am obligated to file an "air safety report".
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Pilot deviations

Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:48 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Slamdunkin wrote:
Also, is there a procedure for pilots to bring possible errors by controllers to someones attention?

Yes. Have a look here at a scenario I posted two years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1393879

Basically New York Approach was having planes doing 210 knots until they got to the outer marker. FedEx 1483 didn't like that, so they asked for a slower speed, and New York Approach refused. Eventually they were handed off to Kennedy Tower, who asked them to slow down, to which they told tower they were trying. Once they landed, they asked the tower for the phone number to New York Approach, controller gave it to them.


A couple of points. In the original post someone said something about a jet doing 350 and making it down. They said some can if they want to. I must disagree with that since it was only 2 yrs old. Back in the day we would take the 727s and be at 250 IAS over the marker and "make it". We would be cleared for a visual and roll wings level over the numbers but those days are over. The stabilized approaches are of course a much safer approach to ops and any deviations can't be accepted. At 210IAS I would say they would have had a problem staying under 1,000 ft/min on the GS not to mention the power adjustments and speed adjustments that would be required. I don't blame the crew at all and it doesn't matter if they were new or not.
 
Slamdunkin
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Re: Pilot deviations

Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:21 pm

Thanks for the answers.

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