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N171DN
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What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:22 am

What would it take? For example, if they wanted to get the 767-200 at the Delta museum flying again (I know, it would never happen)... but theoretically what would be required?
 
Dalmd88
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:23 am

Simple answer is a major overhaul check.

In the case of the Spirit of Delta, It would be likely the most expensive 767 HMV ever. Both engines would need to be replaced with serviceable engines. Pretty much every rotable component would need to be replaced with a serviceable component. Every avionics black box and a ton of wiring would likely need to be replaced. I think in that plane the entire Flight Deck is gutted behind the visible components.

Even though it has been stored inside, I would expect way more than the average corrosion has set up in all sorts of places. On top of that it needs an interior if you want to fly any people around. The interior is currently set up as a display and conference room.

Most planes that go to museums are pretty gutted. Many are even cut to fit in their new homes. Elvis's plane at Graceland is a good example of that. Not saying it can't be done. There have been some warbirds that have been completely rebuilt from very bad condition. It just takes a ton of money. I doubt we will ever see any modern airliners going through that process.
 
ytib
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:10 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
Simple answer is a major overhaul check.

In the case of the Spirit of Delta, It would be likely the most expensive 767 HMV ever. Both engines would need to be replaced with serviceable engines. Pretty much every rotable component would need to be replaced with a serviceable component. Every avionics black box and a ton of wiring would likely need to be replaced. I think in that plane the entire Flight Deck is gutted behind the visible components.

Even though it has been stored inside, I would expect way more than the average corrosion has set up in all sorts of places. On top of that it needs an interior if you want to fly any people around. The interior is currently set up as a display and conference room.

Most planes that go to museums are pretty gutted. Many are even cut to fit in their new homes. Elvis's plane at Graceland is a good example of that. Not saying it can't be done. There have been some warbirds that have been completely rebuilt from very bad condition. It just takes a ton of money. I doubt we will ever see any modern airliners going through that process.


So you are saying there is a chance...

With that amount of work it would never recover the cost to bring it back to flying condition.
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VSMUT
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:36 am

ytib wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Simple answer is a major overhaul check.

In the case of the Spirit of Delta, It would be likely the most expensive 767 HMV ever. Both engines would need to be replaced with serviceable engines. Pretty much every rotable component would need to be replaced with a serviceable component. Every avionics black box and a ton of wiring would likely need to be replaced. I think in that plane the entire Flight Deck is gutted behind the visible components.

Even though it has been stored inside, I would expect way more than the average corrosion has set up in all sorts of places. On top of that it needs an interior if you want to fly any people around. The interior is currently set up as a display and conference room.

Most planes that go to museums are pretty gutted. Many are even cut to fit in their new homes. Elvis's plane at Graceland is a good example of that. Not saying it can't be done. There have been some warbirds that have been completely rebuilt from very bad condition. It just takes a ton of money. I doubt we will ever see any modern airliners going through that process.


So you are saying there is a chance...


It's only a matter of putting in enough effort. This wreck:

Image

Looks like this today:

Image
 
cpd
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:50 pm

Money, parts and people.

And plenty of all three. Sometimes it’s just not going to happen. Some airliners are just too far gone.

If I had inexhaustible supplies of money I’d love to get a Concorde going, but parts are a problem and so are people, the knowledge is sadly disappearing.
 
trnswrld
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:47 pm

Now speaking from the bare minimum stand point required for the aircraft to power up and fly without any regard for safety, rules, regulations would also be very interesting. Using that Delta 762 again as an example....put some computers back in it, fuel it up and go...I bet she'd fly ;-) lol
 
MHG
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:53 pm

But there are quite a few mor "if"´s ...
Talking of a larger (airliner) aircraft it´ll depend on whether maintenance / spare part / licensed personnel / manufacturers support is still availlable.

That is the reason why - as an example - no Concorde will ever fly again.
Its type certificate was cancelled by Airbus (which is the successor of the original holder of the TC).
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:38 pm

MHG wrote:
Its type certificate was cancelled by Airbus (which is the successor of the original holder of the TC).


Could somebody with no connections to either Airbus, BAC or Aérospatiale apply for a new type certificate?
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
MHG
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:27 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
MHG wrote:
Its type certificate was cancelled by Airbus (which is the successor of the original holder of the TC).


Could somebody with no connections to either Airbus, BAC or Aérospatiale apply for a new type certificate?

I doubt someone else could.
Simply because like in the mentioned case Airbus also holds the design rights.
So, they would not allow drawings etc. to be published/used e.g. for spares.
... and CAA´s (like EASA/FAA) would not allow such aircraft to be operated without a sufficient stock of spare parts or the possibility of remanufacturing such spare parts by authorized manufacturers.
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
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zeke
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:53 pm

flyingturtle wrote:

Could somebody with no connections to either Airbus, BAC or Aérospatiale apply for a new type certificate?


If applying for a new type certificate it would need to meet current regulatory requirements which would mean significant design changes.

I don’t think the engines would meet current noise requirements.
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lightsaber
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:01 am

zeke wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:

Could somebody with no connections to either Airbus, BAC or Aérospatiale apply for a new type certificate?


If applying for a new type certificate it would need to meet current regulatory requirements which would mean significant design changes.

I don’t think the engines would meet current noise requirements.

It is messy if the type certificate was active. Boeing gave Basler the DC-3 certificate. They also gave Basler a complete set of drawings and all the certification documentation.

The fuel tanks had a waiver that I recall seeing back when I had access to that stuff. Cancel a certificate, cancel the waivers...

The Concorde will only fly again on an experimental certification.

By the time a plane is in a museum, it is too late for it to have an economical return to service. Possibly excluding the DC-3.

Lightsaber
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zeke
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:20 am

lightsaber wrote:
It is messy if the type certificate was active. Boeing gave Basler the DC-3 certificate. They also gave Basler a complete set of drawings and all the certification documentation.


That is not true, Boeing hold both TCDS A-669 and A-618 for the DC3 civil and military aircraft.

FAA Supplemental Type Certificate SA4840NM and Part Manufacturing Authorization are held by Basler Turbo Conversions, LLC, Oshkosh, WI  USA
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
IADFCO
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:20 am

I remember that during a visit years ago, a guide at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC, told us that they tried to preserve all the items in the museum in such a way that they could be used if someone two or three centuries from now wanted to research, say, aircraft construction. I remember this answer very well because it made perfect sense, but I had never thought of the issue. This would mean that every aircraft in the NASM would, at least in principle, by flyable, but that's my own conclusion. I don't know what they would do, for example, with lubricants. I doubt that they would be stable and usable for two hundred years. Maybe they have a record of the formulas and the manufacturing techniques, so that they could be recreated in the year 2200.

Interesting question, I'll ask the next time I go to the museum.
 
extender
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:33 am

Look at Lufthansa and the L1649 they had at Auburn. They sunk about $170M and just when there was light at the end of the tunnel, the bean counters shelved it. Newly overhauled engines, props, landing gear. And that was 1940s technology.
 
cpd
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
zeke wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:

Could somebody with no connections to either Airbus, BAC or Aérospatiale apply for a new type certificate?


If applying for a new type certificate it would need to meet current regulatory requirements which would mean significant design changes.

I don’t think the engines would meet current noise requirements.

It is messy if the type certificate was active. Boeing gave Basler the DC-3 certificate. They also gave Basler a complete set of drawings and all the certification documentation.

The fuel tanks had a waiver that I recall seeing back when I had access to that stuff. Cancel a certificate, cancel the waivers...

The Concorde will only fly again on an experimental certification.

By the time a plane is in a museum, it is too late for it to have an economical return to service. Possibly excluding the DC-3.

Lightsaber


Even with the experimental certificate, unless someone does a complete handover of the knowledge to the younger generation, there is the sad fact that the people who know the plane well are getting old.

I think that’s even more difficult than the certification.
 
Kent350787
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:24 am

It can be difficult enough with known and supported types. John Travolta donated his 707 to HARS in Australia 3 years ago, and it's still no nearer to joining the 744 and Connie in Albion Park (YWOL)
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phllax
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:49 pm

There is an exception I know of, and it is the SR-71 Blackhawk which is currently at the SAC museum between Lincoln and Omaha. They say it can be taken down from where it hangs and be in the air in about 3 hours.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:05 am

phllax wrote:
There is an exception I know of, and it is the SR-71 Blackhawk which is currently at the SAC museum between Lincoln and Omaha. They say it can be taken down from where it hangs and be in the air in about 3 hours.


I seriously doubt that. It has been sitting there for 30 years. Just replacing degraded seals would take longer than 3 hours. And since they type hasn't flown for two decades there aren't any pilots or engineers with currency on it.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LCDFlight
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:42 pm

It is harder if the parts supplies and procedures are not in place. So restoring a Convair 990 would be harder in some ways, more custom.

A 767 heavy maintenance may cost $10 million or something for a really big one, but the procedures and parts are available. The 767 is stil in production!!! So it's just money.
 
airtechy
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Re: What would it take to revive an aircraft stored at a museum?

Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:29 pm

If all the refurb work could not be done where the plane is located, the first challenge would be .. at least in the US .. to get a ferry permit. Look at all the effort that it took to get the United 727 to Boeing field and the effort still going on .. I think .. to get the American 727 out of Boeing field.

At one time the ferry permit that the FAA issued to allow the Elvis Convair to be ferried from Ft. Lauderdale to Memphis was posted in the it's cockpit. As I remember there were lots of conditions .. gear down, below 10k feet, etc.

Getting a plane currently in production going again could probably be at least partially compared to one with lost log books and serviceable tags. At least the Spirit of Delta has been inside, but to start I suspect, even if they are still there, that all the avionics would have to be replaced to meet new rules. Hanging two engines would probably be cheaper than that!

It is a great topic for discussion though! Maybe someone could make some assumptions about the Delta jet and come up with a cost estimate to just get it airworthy.

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