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phugoid1982
Topic Author
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Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:59 pm

I know that the fastest Concorde transatlantic crossing occurred in 1996 between JFK-LHR and took a brisk 2 hrs and 52 mins and that Concorde usually flew above the jet stream in rather quiescent conditions. However, on that day there were strong winds in the tropopause apparently. Does anyone know if the inbound flight took significantly longer than usual thanks to said meteorological conditions and if any other crossings took longer than usual? Also, did unusual winds at cruise altitude cause any operational changes to Concorde's flight profile i.e. flying lower than usual due winds and at a lower Mach Number (due to increased density and dynamic pressure structural requirements). Thanks.
 
cpd
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:54 pm

That I’m unsure of, but we also know the non-stop flight that went directly to Nice, bypassing Paris. That was the longest I think.

I doubt it would have been common to fly less than Mach 2.0 unless the tmo limit was reached which again I think would not have been very common.
 
Yikes!
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:29 am

The standard of M2.0 cruise climb to TOD (top of descent) was its SOP (standard operating procedure). There was no "cruising" flight level. Its NAT tracks were pre-described. Other flights probably followed the same philosophy - cruise climb to TOD. As an anecdotal account, my crossing was 3:34 gate to gate; 3:22 "off" to "on".
 
Max Q
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:24 am

A little of topic but AF flew their Concordes non stop occasionally from CCS to CDG
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
mmo
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:08 am

Yikes! wrote:
The standard of M2.0 cruise climb to TOD (top of descent) was its SOP (standard operating procedure). There was no "cruising" flight level. Its NAT tracks were pre-described. Other flights probably followed the same philosophy - cruise climb to TOD. As an anecdotal account, my crossing was 3:34 gate to gate; 3:22 "off" to "on".


Just a point of clarification regarding the route. The NAT system is from FL290-FL410 inclusive. The Concorde would have operated on a random track system which would tend to vary every day just like the NAT system. Also, other Concordes may have followed the cruise climb SOP, aircraft on the NAT system would have cruised at a specific FL and would have to request a climb/descent to obtain a new cruise FL,
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
cpd
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:25 pm

mmo wrote:
Yikes! wrote:
The standard of M2.0 cruise climb to TOD (top of descent) was its SOP (standard operating procedure). There was no "cruising" flight level. Its NAT tracks were pre-described. Other flights probably followed the same philosophy - cruise climb to TOD. As an anecdotal account, my crossing was 3:34 gate to gate; 3:22 "off" to "on".


Just a point of clarification regarding the route. The NAT system is from FL290-FL410 inclusive. The Concorde would have operated on a random track system which would tend to vary every day just like the NAT system. Also, other Concordes may have followed the cruise climb SOP, aircraft on the NAT system would have cruised at a specific FL and would have to request a climb/descent to obtain a new cruise FL,


I’m not sure about that point of clarification.

I seem to remember they did have fixed tracks that they operated on, the one exception being a bi-directional one that wasn’t often used. I have the chart for these tracks here. I could try to photograph them but the chart is too large and I doubt it would photograph well.

I’m sure you can show us the flight plans that differed from day to day for Concorde.

I might dig out the latitudes and longitudes for all the waypoints tomorrow if I get time.

The tracks were Sierra-Mike, Sierra-November, Sierra-Papa and Sierra-Oscar.
 
mmo
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:30 pm

cpd wrote:
mmo wrote:
Yikes! wrote:
The standard of M2.0 cruise climb to TOD (top of descent) was its SOP (standard operating procedure). There was no "cruising" flight level. Its NAT tracks were pre-described. Other flights probably followed the same philosophy - cruise climb to TOD. As an anecdotal account, my crossing was 3:34 gate to gate; 3:22 "off" to "on".


Just a point of clarification regarding the route. The NAT system is from FL290-FL410 inclusive. The Concorde would have operated on a random track system which would tend to vary every day just like the NAT system. Also, other Concordes may have followed the cruise climb SOP, aircraft on the NAT system would have cruised at a specific FL and would have to request a climb/descent to obtain a new cruise FL,


I’m not sure about that.

I seem to remember they did have fixed tracks that they operated on, the one exception being a bi-directional one that wasn’t often used. I have the chart for these tracks here. I could try to photograph them but the chart is too large and I doubt it would photograph well.

I’m sure you can show us the flight plans that differed from day to day for Concorde.


Do a search for the NATS system on google as I am not going to do it for you. I only flew them for over 20+ years so I guess I wouldn't know much. I think you have been looking at the IVAO which is some computer game.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
cpd
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:43 pm

mmo wrote:
cpd wrote:
mmo wrote:

Just a point of clarification regarding the route. The NAT system is from FL290-FL410 inclusive. The Concorde would have operated on a random track system which would tend to vary every day just like the NAT system. Also, other Concordes may have followed the cruise climb SOP, aircraft on the NAT system would have cruised at a specific FL and would have to request a climb/descent to obtain a new cruise FL,


I’m not sure about that.

I seem to remember they did have fixed tracks that they operated on, the one exception being a bi-directional one that wasn’t often used. I have the chart for these tracks here. I could try to photograph them but the chart is too large and I doubt it would photograph well.

I’m sure you can show us the flight plans that differed from day to day for Concorde.


Do a search for the NATS system on google as I am not going to do it for you. I only flew them for over 20+ years so I guess I wouldn't know much. I think you have been looking at the IVAO which is some computer game.


I don’t play computer games, I hate them.

So the chart I have here which came from one of the aviation suppliers is completely false, same with the ones you’ll find in the late Christopher Orlebar’s book (inside the front covers). Both of them are out in the bin then.

I’m not doubting that the same flight each day went a totally different way, if I’m reading your reply correctly. Just querying.

But what of recalling the sections of routes from the INS then?

Some more on the routes from a long time ago written on this forum: viewtopic.php?t=734755
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:57 pm

They were flown on fixed supersonic tracks. I’d doubt they ever had a westbound wind that changed flight times by more than a few minutes. Even in the mid-40s over the Atlantic wind dies quite a bit. Not uncommon to lose 40-50 knots on the nose at F450 from the upper thirties.
 
vc10
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Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:40 pm

Do a search for the NATS system on google as I am not going to do it for you. I only flew them for over 20+ years so I guess I wouldn't know much. I think you have been looking at the IVAO which is some computer game.[/quote]

Well I think I can beat you as i flew as a F/E on Concorde for 22 years and in all that time I do not recall we flew anything other than the approved supersonic tracks one westbound and one eastbound with, as stated, a rarely used extra on, Sometimes these fixed tracks would cross the NATS tracks and in the early days we were supposed to transmit if we overflew a subsonic aircraft just in case thy heard the supersonic bang
 
mmo
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Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:55 pm

My point is that the fixed-route system was not part of the NATS. The NATS went up to and included FL450. The Concorde did not cruise at FL450. We are really beating a dead horse as the Concorde isn't operational anymore. In addition, there is no such thing as a cruise climb in the current and past NATS track system. That's it.

Just to let you know, you didn't beat me. My first crossing in a civil aircraft was in 1985, my first crossing in a military aircraft was in 1977. I retired in 2014.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:27 pm

Technically, the NAT tracks only exist at the levels specified in the NAT message. Today’s eastbound tracks are active F320-F400. Routings that match the tracks but are outside those levels are “random routes” that happen to match the tracks. Above F410, I often used the track route but file as a random route due to the level.
 
vc10
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Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:32 pm

mmo wrote:
My point is that the fixed-route system was not part of the NATS. The NATS went up to and included FL450. The Concorde did not cruise at FL450. We are really beating a dead horse as the Concorde isn't operational anymore. In addition, there is no such thing as a cruise climb in the current and past NATS track system. That's it.

Just to let you know, you didn't beat me. My first crossing in a civil aircraft was in 1985, my first crossing in a military aircraft was in 1977. I retired in 2014.



Just to let you know i agree with your statement on the NATS system. I still beat you as my first crossing of the Atlantic was in 1967 on a Britannia and the last was in 2004 on a Lockheed Constellation. Anyway long time retired now hope you are enjoying your retirement
 
cpd
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Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Concorde longest transatlantic crossing due to unusual jet stream?

Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:28 am

vc10 wrote:
I do not recall we flew anything other than the approved supersonic tracks one westbound and one eastbound


That is the clarification I was seeking, thank you. Didn't realise I'd be starting the next world-war by doing that.

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