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klm617
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Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:56 pm

An air traffic controller at DTW has raised concern about the ILS localizer on runway 22R. Was wondering what everyone thoughts are on this issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pdOtR3 ... VPbFZRM4cY
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TonyClifton
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:02 pm

The ILS 22R Y for years was not used. It’s slightly offset, and became more prominent when DTW airspace was changed two years ago with RNAV SID/STARS. The Y approach allows approaches on 22 L and R at the same time. My guess is they prefer using the Y as it’s easier than running a PRM.
 
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tb727
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:16 pm

It's a garbage approach and I hope they get it fixed.
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zeke
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:30 pm

Replace it with a GLS
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:57 pm

tb727 wrote:
It's a garbage approach and I hope they get it fixed.


Seriously interested: why?
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:04 pm

zeke wrote:
Replace it with a GLS


Or you know, just use the ILS/PRM 22R Z...
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tb727
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:07 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
tb727 wrote:
It's a garbage approach and I hope they get it fixed.


Seriously interested: why?


The signal gets blocked and you lose the Localizer on approach. It shouldn't happen but the way they designed it and installed it, taxiing aircraft disrupt it on a regular basis.

I also personally don't like offset localizers when the weather is low. You can go to 300' and 1/2 mile on this one in particular, and although rare, to go that low and align with the runway centerline that close to the ground isn't the safest option in my opinion.
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zeke
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:09 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
zeke wrote:
Replace it with a GLS


Or you know, just use the ILS/PRM 22R Z...


There is obviously issues with facilities on the ground making this not optimum for traffic flow, a GLS would alliterative that. Not every airline is approved to fly PRM approaches either.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:11 pm

tb727 wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
tb727 wrote:
It's a garbage approach and I hope they get it fixed.


Seriously interested: why?


The signal gets blocked and you lose the Localizer on approach. It shouldn't happen but the way they designed it and installed it, taxiing aircraft disrupt it on a regular basis.

I also personally don't like offset localizers when the weather is low. You can go to 300' and 1/2 mile on this one in particular, and although rare, to go that low and align with the runway centerline that close to the ground isn't the safest option in my opinion.


Thanks for the insight.

And agree with you regarding the offset and low weather.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:16 pm

zeke wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
zeke wrote:
Replace it with a GLS


Or you know, just use the ILS/PRM 22R Z...


There is obviously issues with facilities on the ground making this not optimum for traffic flow, a GLS would alliterative that. Not every airline is approved to fly PRM approaches either.


I can without a doubt tell you, that the number of airlines/aircraft flying into DTW who are able to accept an ILS/PRM is substantially higher than those able to accept a GLS approach.
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zeke
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:34 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
I can without a doubt tell you, that the number of airlines/aircraft flying into DTW who are able to accept an ILS/PRM is substantially higher than those able to accept a GLS approach.


GLS would be available on all new airliners these days, and can be retrofitted on exiting aircraft mainly by upgrading the MMR. Replacing ILS facilities with GLS would improve safety in situations like this, and lower the cost of maintaining the facilities.

There will come a time where aircraft that are capable of RNP-AR and GLS approaches will get safety and commercial advantages over those who dont.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:40 pm

zeke wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
I can without a doubt tell you, that the number of airlines/aircraft flying into DTW who are able to accept an ILS/PRM is substantially higher than those able to accept a GLS approach.


GLS would be available on all new airliners these days, and can be retrofitted on exiting aircraft mainly by upgrading the MMR. Replacing ILS facilities with GLS would improve safety in situations like this, and lower the cost of maintaining the facilities.

There will come a time where aircraft that are capable of RNP-AR and GLS approaches will get safety and commercial advantages over those who dont.


Yeah, I’m sure Delta is going to run out and spend millions to outfit all their older jets, not to mention all the DCI regional jets. Heck, a big chunk of the DCI regional jets don’t even have VNAV capability
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Karlsands
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 pm

Could they not just create a better ILS critical area around the antenna , rearrange the taxi way etc , it seems as if aircraft on the ground are the issue in regards to its reliability
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:53 pm

zeke wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
I can without a doubt tell you, that the number of airlines/aircraft flying into DTW who are able to accept an ILS/PRM is substantially higher than those able to accept a GLS approach.


GLS would be available on all new airliners these days, and can be retrofitted on exiting aircraft mainly by upgrading the MMR. Replacing ILS facilities with GLS would improve safety in situations like this, and lower the cost of maintaining the facilities.

There will come a time where aircraft that are capable of RNP-AR and GLS approaches will get safety and commercial advantages over those who dont.


The problem with GLS is that implementation stalled waiting for the new GPS constellation with new frequency band, which will be more robust to ionospheric interference. It should have been implemented a CAT2/3 capable GLS system by now, but they delayed for 2030 and beyond. Only a few airports in the world have a CAT1 capable GLS operational currently.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:28 pm

Karlsands wrote:
Could they not just create a better ILS critical area around the antenna , rearrange the taxi way etc , it seems as if aircraft on the ground are the issue in regards to its reliability


They have one, the ILS 22R Z, they just don’t want to man the track with enough people to operate it with 22L at the same time, via a PRM procedure
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N766UA
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:34 pm

tb727 wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
tb727 wrote:
It's a garbage approach and I hope they get it fixed.


Seriously interested: why?


The signal gets blocked and you lose the Localizer on approach. It shouldn't happen but the way they designed it and installed it, taxiing aircraft disrupt it on a regular basis.

I also personally don't like offset localizers when the weather is low. You can go to 300' and 1/2 mile on this one in particular, and although rare, to go that low and align with the runway centerline that close to the ground isn't the safest option in my opinion.


I've never had an issue with the Y or the Z... but a certain regional airline does seem to have trouble flying their jets in "green needles" from time to time. :lol:
 
johns624
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Re: Problems with the ILS on 22 right at Detroit Metro Airport.

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:09 am

Here's a recently retired DL A320 Captain's view of it who was based at DTW for 19 years...
Never experienced that issue, though I did wonder why they certified that approach years ago, never used it, then began using it. I never was a fan of offset approaches that don't align with the runway, necessitating a small turn to align at low altitudes once you get the runway in sight. They've got one to the opposite runway 4L also. They use them when the ceiling and vis are adequate and they want to have simultaneous ILS approaches to 22L and 22R or 4R and 4L. It gives them the legal lateral spacing they need for two runways that don't have the required 4300' (I think..., might be 2500') distance between them. I think they need the 4300' to not need to stagger aircraft on parallel approaches, they can do it on 2500' separated runways but need to stagger from the adjacent aircraft. I never thought DTW had the traffic volume to justify it, I got the impression ATC occasionally used it just because they could or because they needed to generate numbers to justify the cost of the installation. DAL possibly might have pressured having the capability for max arrival rates during peak periods.

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