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sho69607
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Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:14 am

Hello,

Just out of curiosity how do departures work for airports that are very close to international borders? For example KELP has RW22 which most likely would result in aircraft crossing into Mexican airspace after taking off. For this reason are aircraft restricted from departing that runway? Very similarly KMFE and KLRD are also very close to the border.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:19 pm

Either the procedure simply crosses the border or there's an early turn.

Example border crossing: Basel-Mulhouse runway 15, which crosses from France into Switzerland. Incidentally, the airport isn't even in the same country as the city of Basel.

Example early turn: Seoul Gimpo is very close to the North Korean border. Departing off 32 L or R is an early u-turn to the left. The Gimpo charts are also littered with reassuring little notes to the effect of "really really don't deviate north into this area or you'll get shot at".
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jetblueguy22
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:16 pm

While not exactly an international airport, RRT if you’re flying the RNAV 13 puts you in Canada. Same with INL and RNAV 13.

Been a while but I believe BDE is that way as well if you make right traffic. Always flew left traffic so I didn’t have to see any jets with a Maple Leaf on the tail.
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744lover
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:18 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Example early turn: Seoul Gimpo is very close to the North Korean border. Departing off 32 L or R is an early u-turn to the left. The Gimpo charts are also littered with reassuring little notes to the effect of "really really don't deviate north into this area or you'll get shot at".


At first I thought you were kidding. But not: here is the quote, ad verbatum: "If an aircraft is seen flying through RK(P)-73B without proper clearance, a tracer warning shot will be fired. If the aircraft continues into RK(P)-73A it will be shot down without further warning."

Interesting :)
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:29 pm

Keep in mind that ATC boundaries don't necssarily follow national boundaries. For instance, it's not at all uncommon for DTW arrivals from the southeast to overfly Windsor, but that area is controlled by Detroit Approach and IIRC they do not pay Canadian overflight fees.
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RetiredWeasel
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:01 pm

744lover wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Example early turn: Seoul Gimpo is very close to the North Korean border. Departing off 32 L or R is an early u-turn to the left. The Gimpo charts are also littered with reassuring little notes to the effect of "really really don't deviate north into this area or you'll get shot at".


At first I thought you were kidding. But not: here is the quote, ad verbatum: "If an aircraft is seen flying through RK(P)-73B without proper clearance, a tracer warning shot will be fired. If the aircraft continues into RK(P)-73A it will be shot down without further warning."

Interesting :)


P-73A and B are the prohibited area's above the South Korean equivalent of the White House.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:07 pm

There are approaches into RWY 4 in El Paso which overfly the Mexican border. Countries obviously have agreements.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:13 pm

That’s just fire from South KoreaN forces... the charts are missing the warnings that North Korea frequently likes to use South Korea for target practice without advanced warning.

The only warnings you get are maybe from the TPQ-37 firefinders when incoming ballistic fire is already inbound if they are queued correctly..
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atcdan
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:13 pm

All airspace is divided up by international treaties, and then more practically by “Letter of Agreement” between adjacent controlling authority. For example, Los Angeles Center will have agreements with Oakland Center, Salt Lake Center, Albuquerque Center, Mazatlan Center, SoCal Approach, Las Vegas Approach, Edwards Approach, Phoenix Approach, Santa Barbara Approach, Mugu Approach, etc.

Each one of these documents are reviewed and periodically updated, and are agreed to by both parties as to the exact delegation of airspace and authority, procedures for transfer of control, procedures for routings, and all types of contingencies.

In many cases Each of these agreements are dozens of pages long, and the controlling ATC authorities are responsible for knowing and following all the rules contained.

As someone mentioned up-thread, the airspace boundary is not always the same as the international border.
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:44 pm

I frequently see flights out of YXX (barely two miles from the U.S./Canada border) cross into U.S. airspace before turning back into Canada. I'm sure procedures vary worldwide, but between countries with friendly relations, I don't think it's usually a big deal.
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Newark727
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:40 am

Runway 9 approaches to TIJ will often complete their base leg over the water, then clip San Diego on their final approach. They don't all do it, though; smaller aircraft will cut the corner and stay on the Mexican side of the border. When 27 is in use, though, they do a left turn on takeoff and stay south of the border throughout. May also have to do with Brown Field and NOLF Imperial Beach being so close on the San Diego side?
 
Brianpr3
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:34 am

Same question for the current icn airport
Brian
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:20 am

Brianpr3 wrote:
Same question for the current icn airport


Same answer as Gimpo. No procedure crosses into North Korea.
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VSMUT
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:53 pm

Copenhagen, several departures and arrivals enter Sweden, including the ILS for runway 30.

Samos in Greece, the airport exclusively runs visual departures and arrivals with turns that avoid Turkey. Turkish mainland is just 8 km from the end of the runway.

Singapore, many departures and arrivals cross low over Malaysia. Seletar airport gets even closer. In the other direction you have overfly Indonesia.

Eilat in Israel. Avoids Jordanian and Egyptian airspace. Ditto for Aqaba almost right next to it on the Jordanian side and Taba just on the Egyptian side.


Starlionblue wrote:
Either the procedure simply crosses the border or there's an early turn.

Example border crossing: Basel-Mulhouse runway 15, which crosses from France into Switzerland. Incidentally, the airport isn't even in the same country as the city of Basel.


AFAIK, the Basel runway 15 turn is primarily because of noise restrictions (it is Switzerland after all). The secondary reason is because of the mountains just behind the city.
 
N1120A
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:00 am

Newark727 wrote:
Runway 9 approaches to TIJ will often complete their base leg over the water, then clip San Diego on their final approach. They don't all do it, though; smaller aircraft will cut the corner and stay on the Mexican side of the border. When 27 is in use, though, they do a left turn on takeoff and stay south of the border throughout. May also have to do with Brown Field and NOLF Imperial Beach being so close on the San Diego side?


SDM and TIJ definitely affect each other's traffic.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:20 am

Hong Kong Airspace has some interesting wrinkles. Technically not a different country from Mainland China or Macau, but they are treated as such in most respects, including airspace.

The Hong Kong FIR extends north only to the border with the Mainland, but southwards it extends far out to sea. It thus digs out a pocket in Mainland airspace.

All arrival and departure procedures are in the HK FIR. This means that if you're coming in from Mainland China, you must first cross into HK airspace. To be fair, the Guanghzhou FIR does descend you, but in an ideal world the STARs from the north would start in Guangzhou FIR. So you get these big doglegs on the STARs to lose altitude.

Departing towards Mainland airspace requires using fixed entry points, with minimum altitudes. Now the situation is the opposite as on arrival. Departuring to the north, you have to do a dogleg inside the HK FIR to climb before transiting.

Typically, ATC will try to turn you early and give you shortcuts both on departure and arrival, but this might not be possible due performance.

Flights from HK to and from Taiwan may not transit Mainland airspace, so on departure to Taiwan turn southeast, then east until you reach the Taiwan Strait, and finally north. Additionally, flights that transit Mainland airspace on the way to Taiwan (e.g. FRA-TPE) must first transit into the HK FIR, then the Taipei FIR. This adds quite a few track miles.

Macau airport is in the HK FIR. Departure and Approach are thus handled by HK. Runway 34 points directly at Mainland airspace only a few miles away, not to mention Zhuhai Airport, so there is a very early right turn to remain in the FIR. The turn is even speed limited to prevent the turn widening into Mainland airspace. Runway 16 is the opposite, with a late left turn on approach.

Hong Kong FIR and maritime rescue area.
Image

Image


SIERA STARS from Mainland airspace.
Image

BEKOL SID towards Mainland airspace.
Image
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SJPBR
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Re: Departure procedures for airports located near international borders

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:30 pm

Approaching to IGU in Brazil will
most of the times make you overfly Paraguay and/or Argentina

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